No one helplessly falls away from Christ - it's a choice

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throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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We are saved by accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord - and through sincere repentance. That part is short and simple. But just as the people of Israel were saved out of slavery in Egypt - but later - many of them failed to please God and also wished they could return to Egypt - the same thing can happen to new believers, if they do not prayerfully choose to remain faithful to God in daily life.
No that's not biblical salvation . We are not saved by prayers .
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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2 things

James is about a claimed faith not about real faith. I have no problem interpreting James. James agreed with Paul. Those saved by faith are created anew for good works. They will NOT be hearers if the word not doers as those in James were

As for Hebrews

Again the question is IF they fall away. It does not say they can it is saying if they do (is it possible) well if it is. The author of Hebrews makes it clear they can never be re-saved again they would be lost forever. It is in his words @ImPossible to renew them to repentance”

So I point you to John. Where he said one born of avid can. It sin. Whoever sins have never seen if known God. And how they departed From us but they were never if us

I can’t lose eternal life. If I could it was never eternal Life

However. I can think I have faith (James 2) think I have salvation think I am saved. But I am still a dog. Who will always return to his Vomit (Never have been saved)
Hebrews was written to the church, and in verse 6:4, it is saying that it is impossible for those of the church, who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, verse 5, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they should fall away, to renew them again to repentance (to accept them back into the church). I have personally witnessed preachers who have left the church, and preach a false doctrine because of their greed for money. This scripture, in no way, implies that if a christian falls away, at times, as we all do, to the temptations of the world, that they cannot repent and get forgiveness from God. If we say that you have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.1 John 1:8.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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No that's not biblical salvation . We are not saved by prayers .
We do have deliverance by our prayers. "Saved" in Greek=deliverance. The deliverance we receive from prayers is a deliverance we receive here in this world, Not eternal deliverance.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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We do have deliverance by our prayers. "Saved" in Greek=deliverance. The deliverance we receive from prayers is a deliverance we receive here in this world, Not eternal deliverance.
I meant salvation in the sense of heaven or hell . its not dependant on our prayers , fasting , church membership or tithing .
 
Mar 14, 2011
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So, is what you are saying; that you believe that eternal salvation is given by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man's requirement to participate in his salvation?
Not going to get into some Foolish Calvinist debate.

And this has absolutely Nothing to do with what I said
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I don't think he would have lost his salvation nor did I ever say that's what happened.
Just making sure. Thank you. I do not think he would have either

Yet that is what some are proposing here which is why I asked for clarification
 
Mar 14, 2011
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In post 78 you said that if they fall away, that they were never a christian (son) in the first place. Then in post 79, you say that you fell away for 5 years, but you were always a son. To me, that is a contradiction.
I said they went back to what they truly believed

I said I became a prodigal son

Huge difference
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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Just making sure. Thank you. I do not think he would have either

Yet that is what some are proposing here which is why I asked for clarification
People say a lot of things. I like to just stick with what the Bible says:

11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:11-13
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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Are you affirming that, after you were born again, you have never committed a sin, and had to ask God's forgiveness?
No.
Rom 3:23-24

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
KJV
Furthermore -there is the need to repent daily of sin, as the Lord's model prayer shows:
Matt 6:12

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
KJV
And we all need Jesus to be our High priest, since we are all sinners. But there's a huge difference between unintentional sins, and willful sins. God forgives all sins, upon receiving the gift of salvation through Jesus. After that, He forgives us of all unintentional sins.
No that's not biblical salvation . We are not saved by prayers .
Again, I respect your views. But I don't see it as possible for salvation to come to anyone without their giving consent to God to give it to them. And that is prayer as any communication with God is prayer.

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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Hebrews states emphatically. It is impossible. IF they fall away. To renew them to repentance

1 John is restoring fellowship not sonship
I respect your view, but don't see it that way in scripture. So we just have to pray for one another when it becomes clear we aren't presently able to understand the scriptures the same on a subject.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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People say a lot of things. I like to just stick with what the Bible says:

11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:11-13
Yep no question

I HAVE eternal life. Not conditional life
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I respect your view, but don't see it that way in scripture. So we just have to pray for one another when it becomes clear we aren't presently able to understand the scriptures the same on a subject.
I just try to interpret that passage for what it says. If there is another way to interpret the words impossible to renew. Then I am open to understanding
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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We are saved by accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord - and through sincere repentance. That part is short and simple. But just as the people of Israel were saved out of slavery in Egypt - but later - many of them failed to please God and also wished they could return to Egypt - the same thing can happen to new believers, if they do not prayerfully choose to remain faithful to God in daily life.
No.
Rom 3:23-24

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
KJV
Furthermore -there is the need to repent daily of sin, as the Lord's model prayer shows:
Matt 6:12

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
KJV
And we all need Jesus to be our High priest, since we are all sinners. But there's a huge difference between unintentional sins, and willful sins. God forgives all sins, upon receiving the gift of salvation through Jesus. After that, He forgives us of all unintentional sins.

Again, I respect your views. But I don't see it as possible for salvation to come to anyone without their giving consent to God to give it to them. And that is prayer as any communication with God is prayer.

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
KJV
Salvation is described as 'receiving Jesus '( John 1.12 )
Being Justified .
1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God
Rom 5.1
receiving the atonement.
Rom 5.11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
Eph 4.30 / Eph 1.13-14

We are blessed with all spiritual blessings. Eph 1 .
We are not only secured in the Hands of the Son and the Father . We are his hand .
Eph 5.30 30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
We are predestined by God to guaranteed future Adoption which as rom 8.23 says , its the redemption of the body.

Rom 8 also tells us nothing can separate us .
There is too much to list here as to what the believer receives and how impossible it is to be lost or forfeit salvation.

The Lords prayer is a corporate Prayer for the jews . We are to approach God , not as ' our Father ' , like the catholics recite like a mantra, but personally and individually as Abba Father .
The Jews would say 'Our 'Father .
This is before the cross .

Gal 3.3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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In all do respect, How do you interpret Rom 8:18-25? Is this saying that Paul fell away at times?
I have no idea what you are talking about!

"18 For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the coming glory that will be revealed to us. 19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility—not willingly but because of God who subjected it—in hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance." Romans 8:18-25

This passage has nothing to do with salvation or justification. It is about our walk with Christ, we will encounter suffering, and one day, when Christ returns, even creation will be set free of the bondage of sin.

We live in a fallen world. Bad things happen, as they happened to Paul. But we do not lose hope, because the Holy Spirit gives us endurance or perseverance, to make it to the final day.

You should try and explain what you are talking about, and actually quote the passage, instead of making everyone else look it up. And then explain what on earth you are talking about! Here's another passage in the same topic:

"3 Not only this, but we also rejoice in sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance, character, and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:3-5
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
738
293
63
Salvation is described as 'receiving Jesus '( John 1.12 )
Being Justified .
1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God
Rom 5.1
receiving the atonement.
Rom 5.11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
Eph 4.30 / Eph 1.13-14

We are blessed with all spiritual blessings. Eph 1 .
We are not only secured in the Hands of the Son and the Father . We are his hand .
Eph 5.30 30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
We are predestined by God to guaranteed future Adoption which as rom 8.23 says , its the redemption of the body.

Rom 8 also tells us nothing can separate us .
There is too much to list here as to what the believer receives and how impossible it is to be lost or forfeit salvation.

The Lords prayer is a corporate Prayer for the jews . We are to approach God , not as ' our Father ' , like the catholics recite like a mantra, but personally and individually as Abba Father .
The Jews would say 'Our 'Father .
This is before the cross .

Gal 3.3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
I am well familiar with all those scripture passages on the subject. It's just that we interpret them differently - though we are both sincere in wanting to understand the scriptures as correctly as is possible. But I think you cling to certain scriptures that highlight the truths you best understand, but find yourself failing to understand the companion scriptures that explain the other sides to the subject. This is common among Christians. And Christians are often much affected by how they've been taught about the scriptures - and also by habit of ways of thinking. So as I said, many times we Christians just need to learn to amiably avoid angry arguing - when it becomes clear that discussion has been useless. And to just pray for those we see as having doctrinal errors. And there is no Christian who doesn't learn new things from the Bible - it all takes time to learn all we learn throughout our lives as Christians. And in heaven, we'll all have 100 % correct spiritual doctrines, for sure! But that won't happen to the church of God on the earth, as we're all humans and imperfect, and none of us are as wise as God is.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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293
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I just try to interpret that passage for what it says. If there is another way to interpret the words impossible to renew. Then I am open to understanding
That's all we as humans, can do in interpretation of the scriptures - we just have to prayerfully do our best to understand them all as correctly as is possible. It can often seem puzzling why others aren't able to see the same things we see, when we disagree with them. But it is clear to me that there will never be perfect agreement on all points of Bible doctrine among Christians, while on earth. Perfect understanding of all things doesn't come until saints get to heaven, I believe. We are all human, and imperfect - and none of us are as wise as God is. Still, if we sincerely serve God in this life, we all continue to grow in the Lord throughout our lives, and also in our understanding of Bible truths. It all takes time and daily prayer.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
5,016
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I am well familiar with all those scripture passages on the subject. It's just that we interpret them differently - though we are both sincere in wanting to understand the scriptures as correctly as is possible. But I think you cling to certain scriptures that highlight the truths you best understand, but find yourself failing to understand the companion scriptures that explain the other sides to the subject. This is common among Christians. And Christians are often much affected by how they've been taught about the scriptures - and also by habit of ways of thinking. So as I said, many times we Christians just need to learn to amiably avoid angry arguing - when it becomes clear that discussion has been useless. And to just pray for those we see as having doctrinal errors. And there is no Christian who doesn't learn new things from the Bible - it all takes time to learn all we learn throughout our lives as Christians. And in heaven, we'll all have 100 % correct spiritual doctrines, for sure! But that won't happen to the church of God on the earth, as we're all humans and imperfect, and none of us are as wise as God is.
We've got to get this basic ,simple message correct though . This isn't deep theology..Its the basic message.