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C
Except that we have copious evidence of civilizations that go back further than 4,000 years that weren’t wiped out by a global flood. Here's some things that were happening around the world apparently while the flood was occurring who apparently failed to either drown or even notice that the entire world was covered with water,
Lurker[/quote]
Apparently you are stuck on the 4000 years. I am not. But no matter. You are na interesting troll, but still a troll. enjoy your stay here. Perhaps you are here for a reason that you know not.
c. 2900 BC – 2334 BC: Mesopotamian wars of the Early Dynastic period continue.
c. 2400 BC-2000 BC: Large Painted Jar with Border Containing Birds, from Chanhu-Daro, Indus Valley Civilization, is made. It is now kept at Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.
c. 2360 BC: Hekla-4 eruption.
c. 2350 BC: End of the Early Dynastic IIIb period in Mesopotamia.
c. 2350 BC: First destruction of the city of Mari.
c. 2345 BC: End of Fifth Dynasty. Pharaoh Unas died.
c. 2345 BC: Sixth dynasty of Egypt starts (other date is 2460 BC).
c. 2340 BC – 2180 BC: Akkadian Empire.
c. 2334 BC – 2279 BC: Semitic chieftain Sargon of Akkad's conquest of Sumer and Mesopotamia.
c. 2333 BC: Dangun founded the state Gojoseon (Modern-day Korea), during the reign of the Chinese Emperor Yao
City of Lothal founded under the Indus valley civilization.
24th century BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
c. 2400 BC-2000 BC: Large Painted Jar with Border Containing Birds, from Chanhu-Daro, Indus Valley Civilization, is made. It is now kept at Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.
c. 2360 BC: Hekla-4 eruption.
c. 2350 BC: End of the Early Dynastic IIIb period in Mesopotamia.
c. 2350 BC: First destruction of the city of Mari.
c. 2345 BC: End of Fifth Dynasty. Pharaoh Unas died.
c. 2345 BC: Sixth dynasty of Egypt starts (other date is 2460 BC).
c. 2340 BC – 2180 BC: Akkadian Empire.
c. 2334 BC – 2279 BC: Semitic chieftain Sargon of Akkad's conquest of Sumer and Mesopotamia.
c. 2333 BC: Dangun founded the state Gojoseon (Modern-day Korea), during the reign of the Chinese Emperor Yao
City of Lothal founded under the Indus valley civilization.
24th century BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lurker[/quote]
Apparently you are stuck on the 4000 years. I am not. But no matter. You are na interesting troll, but still a troll. enjoy your stay here. Perhaps you are here for a reason that you know not.
Sorry, I didn't see the thread you're referring to. In any event there remains no particular reason why God would need to make the world look old simply to produce a few elements. Oh, and there is no such thing as a "science-based eternal universe" as the universe is not eternal given. . .you know. . .entropy and stuff.
And wood ships sink. . .all the time. At that length portions of the ark would be lifted by swells while others woul have been dropped into troughs which would have caused the would planks to flex. No pitch is going to withstand that kind of constant hogging and sagging.
In a world without competition there would be no clear traits for natural selection to select for. In any event, evidence for a common ancestor is not at all synonymous with evidence for all populations having been reduced to a single mating pair in 2,308 B.C.
I would be very interested in knowing just what this "genetic problem" is for evolution. In any event, there's no particular reason we can't believe in both evolution and a creative God much like there's no reason we can't believe in both an order God and a solar system that's not composed of heavenly spheres.
Lurker
And wood ships sink. . .all the time. At that length portions of the ark would be lifted by swells while others woul have been dropped into troughs which would have caused the would planks to flex. No pitch is going to withstand that kind of constant hogging and sagging.
In a world without competition there would be no clear traits for natural selection to select for. In any event, evidence for a common ancestor is not at all synonymous with evidence for all populations having been reduced to a single mating pair in 2,308 B.C.
I would be very interested in knowing just what this "genetic problem" is for evolution. In any event, there's no particular reason we can't believe in both evolution and a creative God much like there's no reason we can't believe in both an order God and a solar system that's not composed of heavenly spheres.
Lurker
I have just looked at the website you provided as some sort of evidence. All I can are artist impressions of what scientist think are missing links.
And to show how silly this is, in the Naturally history museum do they not have a part of a skull, I will say that again.. a small portion of skull... and from this they have a huge man made impression of what this human ancestor looked like..boy that takes some Faith to believe that one..
It always amazes me the Human imagination...
and there is still no missing link.. there is no cross over species, there have been plenty of fakes. my question to you is, why out of the millions upon millions of fossils that we have is there no missing link... surely there should be millions of them, since it takes millions of years to evolve?.
Would it be because there is no such thing?
Phil
Phil
Actually those are just examples, the evidence lies in the actual fossils and the actual strata where they were found. The obvious tetrapod and fish traits of Tiktaalik, for example, are found in the actual fossil and are not artifacts of artistic rendition, nor is the fact that scientists used the ToE to predict where and "when" it would be found prior to its discovery.
And yet, your incredulity about this one example does not make all the other remains in the fossil record for human beings disappear. They go right on existing irregardless of your opinions.
There are plenty of them, and I've given you examples of several. Let's take Tiktaalik as one example and look at the evidence.
Tiktaalik meets every plausible criteria for being a transitionary stage between fish and tetrapods by being in the right sequence between these two forms, being in the right aged strata, and showing characteristics of both groups in a number of features.
Tiktaalik is a transitional fossil; it is to tetrapods what Archaeopteryx is to birds. While it may be that neither is ancestor to any living animal, they serve as proof that intermediates between very different types of vertebrates did once exist. The mixture of both fish and tetrapod characteristics found in Tiktaalik include these traits:
* Fish
o fish gills
o fish scales
* “Fishapod”
o half-fish, half-tetrapod limb bones and joints, including a functional wrist joint and radiating, fish-like fins instead of toes
o half-fish, half-tetrapod ear region
* Tetrapod
o tetrapod rib bones
o tetrapod mobile neck
o tetrapod lungs
Tiktaalik generally had the characteristics of a lobe-finned fish, but with front fins featuring arm-like skeletal structures more akin to a crocodile, including a shoulder, elbow, and wrist. The rear fins and tail have not yet been found. It had rows[6] of sharp teeth of a predator fish, and its neck was able to move independently of its body, which is not possible in other fish. The animal also had a flat skull resembling a crocodile’s; eyes on top of its head, suggesting it spent a lot of time looking up; a neck and ribs similar to those of tetrapods, with the latter being used to support its body and aid in breathing via lungs; well developed jaws suitable for catching prey; and a small gill slit called a spiracle that, in more derived animals, became an ear.
We not only find Tiktaalik with features of both fish and tetrapods, but we find Tiktaalik in a sequence of progressively more tetrapod-like creatures exactly where the theory of evolution predicts he should be. Let’s take a little trip through time paying especial attention to the sequence these fossils are found in. Starting at Tiktaalik and working backwards into time we should start finding similar “fishapods” with more and more fish-like traits which is precisely what we see with Panderichthys, then Eusthenopteron, and then Osteolepis. Now, let’s jump back to Tiktaalik and move forward in time looking for its descendants with less and less fish traits and more and more tetrapod traits which brings us to Elginerpeton, then Acanthostega, and Ichthyostega.
It’s also relevant to note not only the sequence in which these transitional forms occur but also their environments which shows a progression from the sea to shallow swamps to land that looks like this, as well as the fossil evidence for the adaptation of limps from fins corresponding to this evolutionary timeline found here and here.
So, to recap, not only does Tiktaalik meet the criteria as “transitional” by sharing numerous features of both fish and tetrapods, but he is part of a lineage of creatures that appears in an evolutionary sequence. If you have another theory that explains not only why Tiktaalik shares these common traits but also why he appears in the fossil record in sequence of both time and environment I would love to hear it.
Lurker
And yet, your incredulity about this one example does not make all the other remains in the fossil record for human beings disappear. They go right on existing irregardless of your opinions.
There are plenty of them, and I've given you examples of several. Let's take Tiktaalik as one example and look at the evidence.
Tiktaalik meets every plausible criteria for being a transitionary stage between fish and tetrapods by being in the right sequence between these two forms, being in the right aged strata, and showing characteristics of both groups in a number of features.
Tiktaalik is a transitional fossil; it is to tetrapods what Archaeopteryx is to birds. While it may be that neither is ancestor to any living animal, they serve as proof that intermediates between very different types of vertebrates did once exist. The mixture of both fish and tetrapod characteristics found in Tiktaalik include these traits:
* Fish
o fish gills
o fish scales
* “Fishapod”
o half-fish, half-tetrapod limb bones and joints, including a functional wrist joint and radiating, fish-like fins instead of toes
o half-fish, half-tetrapod ear region
* Tetrapod
o tetrapod rib bones
o tetrapod mobile neck
o tetrapod lungs
Tiktaalik generally had the characteristics of a lobe-finned fish, but with front fins featuring arm-like skeletal structures more akin to a crocodile, including a shoulder, elbow, and wrist. The rear fins and tail have not yet been found. It had rows[6] of sharp teeth of a predator fish, and its neck was able to move independently of its body, which is not possible in other fish. The animal also had a flat skull resembling a crocodile’s; eyes on top of its head, suggesting it spent a lot of time looking up; a neck and ribs similar to those of tetrapods, with the latter being used to support its body and aid in breathing via lungs; well developed jaws suitable for catching prey; and a small gill slit called a spiracle that, in more derived animals, became an ear.
We not only find Tiktaalik with features of both fish and tetrapods, but we find Tiktaalik in a sequence of progressively more tetrapod-like creatures exactly where the theory of evolution predicts he should be. Let’s take a little trip through time paying especial attention to the sequence these fossils are found in. Starting at Tiktaalik and working backwards into time we should start finding similar “fishapods” with more and more fish-like traits which is precisely what we see with Panderichthys, then Eusthenopteron, and then Osteolepis. Now, let’s jump back to Tiktaalik and move forward in time looking for its descendants with less and less fish traits and more and more tetrapod traits which brings us to Elginerpeton, then Acanthostega, and Ichthyostega.
It’s also relevant to note not only the sequence in which these transitional forms occur but also their environments which shows a progression from the sea to shallow swamps to land that looks like this, as well as the fossil evidence for the adaptation of limps from fins corresponding to this evolutionary timeline found here and here.
So, to recap, not only does Tiktaalik meet the criteria as “transitional” by sharing numerous features of both fish and tetrapods, but he is part of a lineage of creatures that appears in an evolutionary sequence. If you have another theory that explains not only why Tiktaalik shares these common traits but also why he appears in the fossil record in sequence of both time and environment I would love to hear it.
Lurker
Which means that the universe is not eternal
Our experience with actual wood ships demonstrates that you are wrong. Vessels smaller than the ark, carrying less of a payload, and built with stronger materials and techniques than would have been available to Noah have shown that hogging and sagging in moderate to heavy seas will destroy a wood boat over three hundred feet long. It's not going to matter how long it took him to build it, he would not have been able to overcome physics given any amount of time.
It happens, don't worry about it.
Lurker
Our experience with actual wood ships demonstrates that you are wrong. Vessels smaller than the ark, carrying less of a payload, and built with stronger materials and techniques than would have been available to Noah have shown that hogging and sagging in moderate to heavy seas will destroy a wood boat over three hundred feet long. It's not going to matter how long it took him to build it, he would not have been able to overcome physics given any amount of time.
It happens, don't worry about it.
Lurker
Hi Lurker,
I work with ships. well I deal with ship capacity etc. so I don't know where on earth you get your data from.
Also remember Noahs ark was not built to sail.it was built just to float, there was no destination. so it does not come under conventional norms. It does not need to worry about breaking waves
Plus the one big factor you seem to have cut out of the equation..that is 'God'. these where God's specifications not mans. God knew what was need to get the job done.
And your graphs and charts you show above mean absolutly nothing, they are hand drawn pictures to fool people not proof. as for the fossils are they the same 'kind' of animal and not the usual evolution 'tall story of lumping things together and passing it of as proof?
'
Phil
For those that wonder how the ark would float or hold all that is said to in the OT.
Consider this, God Our Father in the OT and Jesus in the NT could make a few loves of bread and a couple fish feed thousands.
Also Jesus walked on water.
So why would you think that the ship would need to meet the requirements of the world?
With all thiings, God makes possible!
God bless, pickles
Consider this, God Our Father in the OT and Jesus in the NT could make a few loves of bread and a couple fish feed thousands.
Also Jesus walked on water.
So why would you think that the ship would need to meet the requirements of the world?
With all thiings, God makes possible!
God bless, pickles
It seems pretty amazing to me that someone who works with ships would think that a vessel that does not have the ability to steer doesn't need to worry about "breaking" waves. The waves don't need to break to be a problem, all there needs to be are sizable swells that would flex different parts of the ark at different times. The reason ships try to steer into waves is to avoid capsizing, which presents another problem for the ark.
As far as capacity goes we could crunch the numbers of any one of a half-dozen or so failed feasibility studies but I don't see the need when we can very safely say that no wood vessel over 300 feet in length has ever carried the equivalent of a mating pair of every vertebrate species on earth along with water, and food supplies.
If you'd like to say that God miraculously kept the ark afloat go for it, that's still not going to explain why there's no evidence of a global flood having occurred four thousand years ago.
Sadly, your ability to exercise cognitive dissonance is not an argument, nor does it have any effect whatsoever on reality. The Tiktaalik fossil is real, the sequence in which it is found relative to the evolutionary progression from lobbed-fish to tetrapods is real, the physical features which show a transition between traits of fish and traits of tetrapods are real (as demonstrated by the actual photographs you are ignoring).
Lurker
As far as capacity goes we could crunch the numbers of any one of a half-dozen or so failed feasibility studies but I don't see the need when we can very safely say that no wood vessel over 300 feet in length has ever carried the equivalent of a mating pair of every vertebrate species on earth along with water, and food supplies.
If you'd like to say that God miraculously kept the ark afloat go for it, that's still not going to explain why there's no evidence of a global flood having occurred four thousand years ago.
Sadly, your ability to exercise cognitive dissonance is not an argument, nor does it have any effect whatsoever on reality. The Tiktaalik fossil is real, the sequence in which it is found relative to the evolutionary progression from lobbed-fish to tetrapods is real, the physical features which show a transition between traits of fish and traits of tetrapods are real (as demonstrated by the actual photographs you are ignoring).
Lurker
