Non-ending misconceptions about the reformed faith

[trofimus]

Hi, brothers and sisters.

Because I have to respond all the time to strange caricatures of Calvinism or reformed faith, I will try to summarize it here.

First I apologize for my English.

Second, I am not an "American Calvinist", so my views can be mixed somehow with the central European influences of theology and views. Sorry for that. But still, I think that my points will be agreed by most of the other Calvinists here on CC.

=============================

1. We are not saying we do not have a choice
- if God will judge us for our deeds (both good and evil), we must have a choice
- we are only saying that, we, as a fallen human race, incline towards evil [choices]

2. When we say we do not have a free will, we are not saying we do not have any will at all.
- we are only saying that our will is not perfect enough to be called "free"
- we, as any created beings, are subjected to countless influences we have no control over and they make us "freely" decide this or that way

3. We are not saying that the elect ones will be saved no matter what they do
- we are saying that they will do everything what is needed to be done
- because God's predestination is not just about the end, it is also about the whole journey from the Big Bang -> every predestined end has its predestined chain of reactions


4. When we say that we do not have a free will, we are not saying that we are robots
- no inclination equals pre-programming
- predestination makes events certain, but not necessary
- we are making our own choices base on our desires, inclinations, experiences etc -> without a grace of God, we are making worldly choices

5. So why to preach the Gospel?
- for the elect ones so they can hear it and respond positively and be saved
- for the non-elect ones it is a preaching of the coming judgement

6. "But Calvin did this or that, his opinions were... and he killed several people"
- by "Calvinism" we just distinguish our theological view from the other ones, mainly the "Arminian" one
- most of us have no idea about the life and teaching of Calvin (yeah, I have, but it does not influence my "Calvinism" much)

7. John 3:16 says nothing relevant to Calvinism/free will debate
- it only says that who believes, will be saved, which is what we accept fully
- read also context - about a need to be born from above, then the real faith comes

------

If you have any other questions, I will try to respond shortly and simply, without a load of theology and verses.

 

[trofimus]

I know there are some thread currently running on about the same topic, but it seems to me they are way out of the line now.

 

[Grace777x70]

I can agree with most of what is written in some form or other.

Where I see the big dis-connect is for many Christians is in this statement.

5. So why to preach the Gospel?
- for the elect ones so they can hear it and respond positively and be saved
- for the non-elect ones it is a preaching of the coming judgement

What this ( #5 ) appears to be saying by many Christians - is that God has predetermined who is going to hell because of His own choice and He does not offer them eternal life. He does not offer them the choice to believe in Christ because they are not the "elect".


"If" this is true - then it violates the abundance of scriptures that talk about the world and whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

And as Paul says to Timothy that God is the Savior of the world especially of believers. Why believers? Because they believed when they heard the message of Christ.

The other thing is that #5 it completely violates the whole "why" behind the gospel in the first place. God so loved the world - that He gave.

It is also a violation of the very nature and character of God.

This is like saying that a parent has 5 children - the house is on fire and is going to destroy those whom the parent loves. He chooses on purpose to tell 3 of his children that if they believe in him and jump in his arms - they will be saved from the fire.

Here is the kicker - He refuses the other 2 children the opportunity to be saved from the fire because of His own personal choice for them. You are not part of the "elect".

The heart and mind of man is not designed by God to trust such a being that would do this. We would throw people in jail for doing such a horrendous thing. Where do we get this sense of moral rightness from? From God of course. Will not the God of all justice do what is right?

My own personal view of the elect is that Jesus Himself is the elect and all that believe in Him become the elect because they are one spirit with Him. Those that believe are predestined to be in Christ and Christ to be in them. It's a simple matter.

 

[trofimus]

I can agree with most of what is written in some form or other.

Where I see the big dis-connect is for many Christians is in this statement.

5. So why to preach the Gospel?
- for the elect ones so they can hear it and respond positively and be saved
- for the non-elect ones it is a preaching of the coming judgement

What this ( #5 ) appears to be saying by many Christians - is that God has predetermined who is going to hell because of His own choice and He does not offer them eternal life. He does not offer them the choice to believe in Christ because they are not the "elect".


"If" this is true - then it violates the abundance of scriptures that talk about the world and whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

And as Paul says to Timothy that God is the Savior of the world especially of believers. Why believers? Because they believed when they heard the message of Christ.

The other thing is that #5 it completely violates the whole "why" behind the gospel in the first place. God so loved the world - that He gave.

It is also a violation of the very nature and character of God.

This is like saying that a parent has 5 children - the house is on fire and is going to destroy those whom the parent loves. He chooses on purpose to tell 3 of his children that if they believe in him and jump in his arms - they will be saved from the fire.

Here is the kicker - He refuses the other 2 children the opportunity to be saved from the fire because of His own personal choice for them. You are not part of the "elect".

The heart and mind of man is not designed by God to trust such a being that would do this. We would throw people in jail for doing such a horrendous thing. Where do we get this sense of moral rightness from? From God of course. Will not the God of all justice do what is right?

My own personal view of the elect is that Jesus Himself is the elect and all that believe in Him become the elect because they are one spirit with Him. Those that believe are predestined to be in Christ and Christ to be in them. It's a simple matter.

Can you say it shorter? 3 sentences max? I will give a short answer then.

My point has 2 sentences

 

[SovereignGrace]

5. So why to preach the Gospel?
- for the elect ones so they can hear it and respond positively and be saved
- for the non-elect ones it is a preaching of the coming judgement

What this ( #5 ) appears to be saying by many Christians - is that God has predetermined who is going to hell because of His own choice and He does not offer them eternal life. He does not offer them the choice to believe in Christ because they are not the "elect".

If God had not predetermined/predestined some to be saved, all would be in hell. That is how the glorious doctrine of election and predestination is properly understood...not that God has predestined some to hell. Predestination and election is towards the saving of sinners from an eternal hell, while others are justly left in their sins.

 

[fredoheaven]

7. John 3:16 says nothing relevant to Calvinism/free will debate
- it only says that who believes, will be saved, which is what we accept fully
- read also context - about a need to be born from above, then the real faith comes

------

If you have any other questions, I will try to respond shortly and simply, without a load of theology and verses.

No.7 why this is not relevant to Calvinism?
What does the 'world' meant here?

Thanks

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Depleted]

Hi, brothers and sisters.

Because I have to respond all the time to strange caricatures of Calvinism or reformed faith, I will try to summarize it here.

First I apologize for my English.

Second, I am not an "American Calvinist", so my views can be mixed somehow with the central European influences of theology and views. Sorry for that. But still, I think that my points will be agreed by most of the other Calvinists here on CC.

=============================

1. We are not saying we do not have a choice
- if God will judge us for our deeds (both good and evil), we must have a choice
- we are only saying that, we, as a fallen human race, incline towards evil [choices]

2. When we say we do not have a free will, we are not saying we do not have any will at all.
- we are only saying that our will is not perfect enough to be called "free"
- we, as any created beings, are subjected to countless influences we have no control over and they make us "freely" decide this or that way

3. We are not saying that the elect ones will be saved no matter what they do
- we are saying that they will do everything what is needed to be done
- because God's predestination is not just about the end, it is also about the whole journey from the Big Bang -> every predestined end has its predestined chain of reactions


4. When we say that we do not have a free will, we are not saying that we are robots
- no inclination equals pre-programming
- predestination makes events certain, but not necessary
- we are making our own choices base on our desires, inclinations, experiences etc -> without a grace of God, we are making worldly choices

5. So why to preach the Gospel?
- for the elect ones so they can hear it and respond positively and be saved
- for the non-elect ones it is a preaching of the coming judgement

6. "But Calvin did this or that, his opinions were... and he killed several people"
- by "Calvinism" we just distinguish our theological view from the other ones, mainly the "Arminian" one
- most of us have no idea about the life and teaching of Calvin (yeah, I have, but it does not influence my "Calvinism" much)

7. John 3:16 says nothing relevant to Calvinism/free will debate
- it only says that who believes, will be saved, which is what we accept fully
- read also context - about a need to be born from above, then the real faith comes

------

If you have any other questions, I will try to respond shortly and simply, without a load of theology and verses.

Got a question for you.

What is the difference between eastern and western Reformed? (You used different words, but my mind set on there was a different Reformation in the eastern side of Europe than in the western side.)

 

[Depleted]

No.7 why this is not relevant to Calvinism?
What does the 'world' meant here?

Thanks

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Reread ALL of #7.

7. John 3:16 says nothing relevant to Calvinism/free will debate
- it only says that who believes, will be saved, which is what we accept fully
- read also context - about a need to be born from above, then the real faith comes

 

[Depleted]

If past behavior predicts future actions, assume Grace7 will return in three more pages for another post of his opinions minus reading anything anyone else says, and with another caveat that he's not really interested in Calvinism enough to bother with this.

 

[fredoheaven]

Reread ALL of #7.

Hi Depleted,

So what is the context all about?

Thanks

 

[trofimus]

No.7 why this is not relevant to Calvinism?
What does the 'world' meant here?

Thanks

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"World" in 3:16 means the same thing as the "world" in John 3:17:
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Who are saved? The ones who believe. Not whole the world - that would be universalism.

 

[Grace777x70]

If past behavior predicts future actions, assume Grace7 will return in three more pages for another post of his opinions minus reading anything anyone else says, and with another caveat that he's not really interested in Calvinism enough to bother with this.

God love you Lynn...you are an equal opportunity insulter to those that have a different opinion then you do. I have even seen you insult yourself a few times.

I told you - I asked the Lord to be near you when we go to heaven. We are going to have a lot of fun together.

Bless you...

 

[fredoheaven]

"World" in 3:16 means the same thing as the "world" in John 3:17:
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Who are saved? The ones who believe. Not whole the world - that would be universalism.

Okay, thank you for the response but I was not thinking of the 'saved' but the word 'world'. But what is 'universalism'?

God bless

 

[trofimus]

Got a question for you.

What is the difference between eastern and western Reformed? (You used different words, but my mind set on there was a different Reformation in the eastern side of Europe than in the western side.)

If I would have to say it shortly, I would say that the western/American part of reformation is more to extremes, because it got isolated in the USA/Scotland etc.

The Czech/German one is more a result of various flows from many directions, from the North, East, West....

 

[Depleted]

Hi Depleted,

So what is the context all about?

Thanks

Seriously? You don't know the context for John 3:16? Like, you don't know what happened before that verse or after it? It's time to read the Gospel of John. Spoiler Alerts: it's a good'n and God wins.

 

[trofimus]

Okay, thank you for the response but I was not thinking of the 'saved' but the word 'world'. But what is 'universalism'?

God bless

Universalism is a teaching that the whole world will be saved.

 

[fredoheaven]

Seriously? You don't know the context for John 3:16? Like, you don't know what happened before that verse or after it? It's time to read the Gospel of John. Spoiler Alerts: it's a good'n and God wins.

Ahh... okay, I was just responding to the original OP, to ask question.

Thanks anyway need to go there for learning the context on my own.

God bless

 

[fredoheaven]

Universalism is a teaching that the whole world will be saved.

okay thank you...so that I am not fit to be called universalist...

 

[trofimus]

okay thank you...so that I am not fit to be called universalist...

Ok then... so we agree that the word "world" does not mean everybody living on the planet, regarding salvation.

 

[Depleted]

If I would have to say it shortly, I would say that the western/American part of Calvinism is more to extremes, because it got isolated in the USA/Scotland etc.

The Czech/German one is more a result of various flows from many directions.

Ooooh, misconception, then.

This is what our local Teaching Elder thinks of the difference between the UK and the US. (He's from the UK.) He also hits Australia.
[video=youtube;aEjL-UneWQU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjL-UneWQU[/video]