"Not by works" - false!

[Chester]

You've responded to my question with a question, so let's do this fairly...

I asked first, so after you answer my question I will answer yours:

Are you saying that Christians do not need to keep God's commandments?

Your word "need" in your question is problematic. Most people here are going to understand you to be saying that you need to do God's commandments and that is what gains salvation for you? Is this what you mean?

 

[jaybird88]

Good works are the evidence of salvation, not the cause. As long as we remember this, we are good to go.

ok we can call it "evidence"
and again, without this "evidence" there is no salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

John 14:15 "If you love me, obey my commandments".

Keeping His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Christ, but not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.
1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

The Bible teaches us that if after receiving grace, we continue deliberately sinning and rebelling against God, that Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins.

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

So where do you draw the line in the sand according to your standards, since Christians are not sinless 100% of the time?

 

[DBurrage]

I've been reading all these post, so I have a partial understanding (aside: who knows the heart of another)

I believe the @DBurrage does not in anyway believe in salvation by works. I believe "what we have here is failure to communicate - Movie: Cool Hand Luke". DBurrage is not able to articulate exactly what he means IMO. He often makes statements that, when dissected contradict. When questioned be specific definitions and clarifications he often side steps such queries unwittingly.
I respect him as a brother-in-Christ, but not as an expositor of scripture.

One of the problems we have is our differing view as to what is meant by "works".

If you have a question THAT I HAVE NOT ALREADY COVERED IN THIS THREAD, ask away.

 

[DBurrage]

Salvation based on the merits of our performance is works salvation.

Justification by the law is salvation by works and the moral aspect of the law includes good works in general. (Matthew 22:37-40)

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any good works that Christians accomplish which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

Nobody is arguing for a license to sin. Typical straw man argument.

Of course we should strive to do our best to serve the Lord and abstain from sinful behavior, but our best efforts are not good enough to merit eternal life.

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" (deliberately continue sinning) in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a continuous action that is a matter of practice. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

CONTEXT. The unrighteous draw back to perdition, but the righteous believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

Again, going round in circles.

Stop attacking a brother and make an effort to understand what I'm saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the roadblock we've hit is our differing meaning of 'works'.

There is no Biblical definition for 'works', so no wonder we have crossed wires.

When the majority of Christians say that "salvation by works I'd dead", or something similar, they're highlighting that we no longer have to abide by Mosaic law since we are under grace.
This is true.

The trouble is that what you're saying is that we can behave in any way we like: that we do not need to make an effort to turn away from sin.

However, Christians do have a duty to keep God's commandments (which is different to Mosaic law).

John 14:15
"If you love me, obey my commandments".

The Bible teaches us that if after receiving grace, we continue deliberately sinning and rebelling against God, that Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins.

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

I already told you my meaning of works and it follows with Gods meaning of works
see romans 4 and Titus 3
It is ANY work of righteousness one does
To earn iot Maintain salvation
Your gospel Fits that defenition
Hence. You teach works

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've been reading all these post, so I have a partial understanding (aside: who knows the heart of another)

I believe the @DBurrage does not in anyway believe in salvation by works. I believe "what we have here is failure to communicate - Movie: Cool Hand Luke". DBurrage is not able to articulate exactly what he means IMO. He often makes statements that, when dissected contradict. When questioned be specific definitions and clarifications he often side steps such queries unwittingly.
I respect him as a brother-in-Christ, but not as an expositor of scripture.

I think you may have a understanding problem
he said he believes we are saved by faith PLUS doing our best (works)
I think I understand him quite well
but thank you for trying to help

 

[mailmandan]

Again, going round in circles.

Stop attacking a brother and make an effort to understand what I'm saying.

I'm not attacking. I'm trying to reason through the scriptures with you, but your continued ambiguous language is problematic.

 

[DBurrage]

I already told you my meaning of works and it follows with Gods meaning of works
see romans 4 and Titus 3
It is ANY work of righteousness one does
To earn iot Maintain salvation
Your gospel Fits that defenition
Hence. You teach works

Ok let's do this the other way round, are you saying that salvation can be attained WITHOUT keeping God's commandments?
John 14:15

 

[Chester]

What I heard you say in that post: Salvation is through faith + our best efforts to stop sinning.

Mailman Dan,

Here is what he wrote on post 282:


I believe that we are reconciled with God through belief in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told to
1. Have faith in Jesus, AND
2. Do our best to stop sinning and rebelling against God

Note how he has the two parts separated
(1) We are reconciled by our believing
then (2) God tells us to have faith and stop sinning

But very confusing I agree - and a little crazy to start a post by writing directly against Scripture:
Ephesians says "not by works," but the post says "not by works" - False!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok we can call it "evidence"
and again, without this "evidence" there is no salvation.

So god needs evidence?

What a weak God we must have
he created the heavens and earth but can not determine if ones faith is Real or
Not

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Keeping His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Christ, but not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.
1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

So where do you draw the line in the sand according to your standards, since Christians are not sinless 100% of the time?

I have seen you ask this multiple times has he answered?

 

[DBurrage]

I'm not attacking. I'm trying to reason through the scriptures with you, but your continued ambiguous language is problematic.

You are going round in circles.
You keep asking me what do I mean by this and what do I mean by that...

I continually refer you to posts where I've answered your questions but you keep saying the same thing.

So let's do this the other way around.
Please tell me what YOU believe

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, going round in circles.

Stop attacking a brother and make an effort to understand what I'm saying.

Stop attacking people and make an effort to understand we KNOW what your saying
your not the first to come here and push this legalistic view of salvation = faith plus righteous deeds (works)

 

[dcontroversal]

the example of Jesus is good works, no way around that one.

Yep.....and no way around JESUS BEING BORN THE SON OF GOD BEFORE one work........

Another cainologist thread filled with religionists that devalue Jesus and lift self...

Faith plus works to gain, keep or maintain salvation as a gospel = a false gospel, no power to save and hell to pay!

Lord Lord have we not done.....blah, blah blah

MANY BELIEVE THIS DRIVEL!

 

[DBurrage]

Stop attacking people and make an effort to understand we KNOW what your saying
your not the first to come here and push this legalistic view of salvation = faith plus righteous deeds (works)

Keeping God's commandments is not legalistic.
You're conflating keeping God's commandments with living under the law.

Christians are told to keep God's commandments:
John 14:15
"If you love me, obey my commandments"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok let's do this the other way round, are you saying that salvation can be attained WITHOUT keeping God's commandments?
John 14:15

God said in order to earn salvation we must be perfect
even non believers as Paul said in practice obey commands are they saved?

Why do we obey as believers?
Better yet can a child of God not should fruits of repentance?

 

[DBurrage]

Yep.....and no way around JESUS BEING BORN THE SON OF GOD BEFORE one work........

Another cainologist thread filled with religionists that devalue Jesus and lift self...

Faith plus works to gain, keep or maintain salvation as a gospel = a false gospel, no power to save and hell to pay!

Lord Lord have we not done.....blah, blah blah

MANY BELIEVE THIS DRIVEL!

Stop the attacking and answer this:

Do Christians have to keep God's commandments?

 

[dcontroversal]

Stop attacking people and make an effort to understand we KNOW what your saying
your not the first to come here and push this legalistic view of salvation = faith plus righteous deeds (works)

Another Cainologist plugging for the "MANY" GROUP!

 

[jaybird88]

So god needs evidence?

What a weak God we must have
he created the heavens and earth but can not determine if ones faith is Real or
Not

i agree. im just quoting the guy that called it "evidence".
i think laws like "dont murder" were put there so we dont murder. i think not murdering each other is a good thing, but some people actually think its a curse