"Not by works" - false!

[DBurrage]

So the OP received 10 red X's for nothing and everyone who gave you a red X is simply confused and you are simply misunderstood? All of this controversy is over nothing after all? I don't think so.

The truth of God's word is not determined by the cast of a vote.

Perhaps you could see beyond the title of the thread, and tell me where my belief is wrong?
Here is my belief, and I look forward to your input:

I believe that we are reconciled with God through belief in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told to
1. Have faith in Jesus, AND
2. Do our best to stop sinning and rebelling against God

We will never be able to stop sinning because of our imperfect nature and so we will never be able to reach the standard of God through any works.
Through Jesus I believe he, and he only, makes up for this shortfall and reconciles us with God.

BUT if we do not consciously turn away from sin and do our best to stop rebelling against God once we accept Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

 

[DBurrage]

Ah

so we have to add to the work of christ because his work was incomplete,

I do not think he will be very happy when you tell him this and try to boast of your works

No, this is what I'm saying:

I believe that we are reconciled with God through belief in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told to
1. Have faith in Jesus, AND
2. Do our best to stop sinning and rebelling against God

We will never be able to stop sinning because of our imperfect nature and so we will never be able to reach the standard of God through any works.
Through Jesus I believe he, and he only, makes up for this shortfall and reconciles us with God.

BUT if we do not consciously turn away from sin and do our best to stop rebelling against God once we accept Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

Do you think Christians should behave as they wish, or do you think we have a duty to behave in a way that tries to emulate Christ.

You're confusing 'keeping God's commandments' with 'living under Mosaic law'.

 

[mailmandan]

The truth of God's word is not determined by the cast of a vote.

Perhaps you could see beyond the title of the thread, and tell me where my belief is wrong?
Here is my belief, and I look forward to your input:

I believe that we are reconciled with God through belief in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told to
1. Have faith in Jesus, AND
2. Do our best to stop sinning and rebelling against God

We will never be able to stop sinning because of our imperfect nature and so we will never be able to reach the standard of God through any works.
Through Jesus I believe he, and he only, makes up for this shortfall and reconciles us with God.

BUT if we do not consciously turn away from sin and do our best to stop rebelling against God once we accept Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

In your previous posts, you have said that we are reconciled to God through belief/faith in Jesus Christ, but then you also add "do our best to stop sinning" and commandment keeping to the equation. How do you measure whether or not you did your best? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you did your best, so now the Lord will still be able to save you? Did you read posts #113 and #115?

 

[Runningman]

No, this is what I'm saying:

I believe that we are reconciled with God through belief in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told to
1. Have faith in Jesus, AND
2. Do our best to stop sinning and rebelling against God

We will never be able to stop sinning because of our imperfect nature and so we will never be able to reach the standard of God through any works.
Through Jesus I believe he, and he only, makes up for this shortfall and reconciles us with God.

BUT if we do not consciously turn away from sin and do our best to stop rebelling against God once we accept Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

Do you think Christians should behave as they wish, or do you think we have a duty to behave in a way that tries to emulate Christ.

You're confusing 'keeping God's commandments' with 'living under Mosaic law'.

The only way Hebrews 10:26 makes sense is if the sacrifice he is referring to is a bull or a lamb. If Jesus's is just as good as a bull or a lamb then his sacrifice was in vain, no one is really saved, and we're back to Judaism.

So that can't logically or scripturally be the case

Of Jesus's sacrifice this is what is said:

Hebrews 10:14 "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."

 

[DBurrage]

In your previous posts, you have said that we are reconciled to God through belief/faith in Jesus Christ, but then you also add "do our best to stop sinning" and commandment keeping to the equation. How do you measure whether or not you did your best? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you did your best, so now the Lord will still be able to save you?

Thank you for reading my post, #281 above.
Or at least I'm assuming you've read it?
IF you have read it and taken it in you will understand what I'm saying.
To be fair the thread title has thrown a lot of people off what I'm actually trying to say.

In terms of turning away from sin, you asked in the quote above
"How do you measure whether or not you did your best?".

I would suggest that if you can confidently stand in the presence of God and tell him that you did your best to turn away from sin and stop rebelling, that's a pretty good measure.
God owns salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

To be fair the thread title has thrown a lot of people off what I'm actually trying to say.

You should not be surprised.

In terms of turning away from sin, you asked in the quote above
"How do you measure whether or not you did your best?".

I would suggest that if you can confidently stand in the presence of God and tell him that you did your best to turn away from sin and stop rebelling, that's a pretty good measure.
God owns salvation.

So do you believe that we are we saved by grace through faith, not works, or based on the merits of our best efforts to turn away from sin? Does God grade on a curve? Where did Jesus draw the line in the sand on who will and won't be saved? See John 3:18.

 

[FlyingDove]

Judgment seat of Christ = Believers Only

vs

White Throne Judgment Seat= Those that rejected Christ atonement until at/life's end/death

1 Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(NOTE: Sin is the transgression of Gods law.)

We've all broken God's law & deserve it's sentence invoked in (Rom 6:23 = DEATH).

No one can say he is not a sinner until some means is provided (not to take away the law) but to remove the sin, which is the transgression of the law.

When Faith is placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning death (sins required wage PAID), burial (proof he died) & resurrection (God's receipt, sin payment received & accepted). ALL of the believers sins are IMPUTED (Rom chap 4) & placed onto Jesus. At the same time Jesus IMPUTES His righteousness onto the believer. Who now becomes the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21, Rom 3:22)

Having had their sin removed, at the Judgment seat of Christ. The discussion is rewards, NOT, sin/judgment based.

1 Cor 1:2, 2Cor 1:1 & Col 1:2, ALL are written to believers!

1 Cor 3:8-14 Good works receive a reward. Bad or No works (DEAD) result in shame & or loss (Matt 25:28 take the talent, I gave him, & give it to another, that worked.

Col 1:10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

(NOTE: When believers stand before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10) Every good work done in Christ's name, will receive a reward. Even a cold drink of water given in Jesus name (Matt 10:22).

Sin isn't discussed here, Jesus paid for & removed ALL the believers sins. Rewards are the focus at the Judgment seat of Christ)

1 Cor 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, "he will suffer loss", "though he himself will be saved"

(NOTE: Hay, wood & stubble deeds/bad or No works (DEAD) will bring, shame & loss = of REWARDS not SALVATION)

Rereading verse 15: He "Will SUFFER LOSS", though he "HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED"

White Throne Judgment: Rev 20:11-13 = non-believers only.

What's the litmus test for sin - The LAW!

The people at the White Throne Judgment have rejected Christ's, redemptive sin atonement. Having no cover/cloak for sin (Jn 15:22) they are judged according to every jot & tittle of the Law

Everything they've ever done or said, has been "RECORDED". Every idle word ever spoken, is judged. End result eternal separation from Creator God.

 

[DBurrage]

You should not be surprised.

So do you believe that we are we saved by grace through faith, not works, or based on the merits of our best efforts to turn away from sin? Does God grade on a curve? Where did Jesus draw the line in the sand on who will and won't be saved? See John 3:18.

Ok so the first thing is that I've already said what I believe, post 282 above on this page.

You've asked whether I believe we are saved through our faith in Jesus or by works.
I'll point you to post 282 above, to save me from repeating myself.

 

[mailmandan]

Ok so the first thing is that I've already said what I believe, post 282 above on this page.

You've asked whether I believe we are saved through our faith in Jesus or by works.
I'll point you to post 282 above, to save me from repeating myself.

What I heard you say in that post: Salvation is through faith + our best efforts to stop sinning.

 

[DBurrage]

What I heard you say in that post: Salvation is through faith + our best efforts to stop sinning.

Yes, but don't confuse turning away from sin with 'works'.

'Salvation by works' doesn't actually have a Biblical definition, but most modern Christians understand it to mean 'keeping Mosaic law'.

Nobody in this thread is arguing for living under Mosaic law since Christians are under grace, and keeping God's commandments should not be confused with living under Mosaic law either.

Put it like this: If I'm wrong, then that would imply that Christians can behave as they wish!
Do you not believe that Christians should do their best to stop rebelling against God?

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

 

[gb9]

Yes, but don't confuse turning away from sin with 'works'.

'Salvation by works' doesn't actually have a Biblical definition, but most modern Christians understand it to mean 'keeping Mosaic law'.

Nobody in this thread is arguing for living under Mosaic law since Christians are under grace, and keeping God's commandments should not be confused with living under Mosaic law either.

Put it like this: If I'm wrong, then that would imply that Christians can behave as they wish!
Do you not believe that Christians should do their best to stop rebelling against God?

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

you should not base theology on isolated verses.

 

[DBurrage]

you should not base theology on isolated verses.

I'm either correct in saying that Christians should do their best to stop sinning and rebelling against God, or I'm wrong.
Which is it?

 

[gb9]

I'm either correct in saying that Christians should do their best to stop sinning and rebelling against God, or I'm wrong.
Which is it?

correct.

but, not to maintain salvation. we are saved by belief only. nothing else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, but don't confuse turning away from sin with 'works'.

'Salvation by works' doesn't actually have a Biblical definition, but most modern Christians understand it to mean 'keeping Mosaic law'.

Nobody in this thread is arguing for living under Mosaic law since Christians are under grace, and keeping God's commandments should not be confused with living under Mosaic law either.

Put it like this: If I'm wrong, then that would imply that Christians can behave as they wish!
Do you not believe that Christians should do their best to stop rebelling against God?

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

Salvation by works does not mean by mosaic law
it means by doing works. Like trying your best to stop sin. To earn your salvation

 

[DBurrage]

Salvation by works does not mean by mosaic law
it means by doing works. Like trying your best to stop sin. To earn your salvation

So you're saying that Christians can behave as they wish, rather than behaving in a way that tries to emulate Christ?

That doesn't correspond with my reading of Hebrews 10:26.

See post #199 in this thread, page 10.

 

[DBurrage]

correct.

but, not to maintain salvation. we are saved by belief only. nothing else.

Then I think we agree

I think the title of this thread has thrown people.
Admittedly the title was a poor choice on my part.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you're saying that Christians can behave as they wish, rather than behaving in a way that tries to emulate Christ?

That doesn't correspond with my reading of Hebrews 10:26.

See post #199 in this thread, page 10.

So you do teach works based salvation

So why do you deny it?

 

[DBurrage]

So you do teach works based salvation

So why do you deny it?

I think the roadblock we've hit is our differing meaning of 'works'.

There is no Biblical definition for 'works', so no wonder we have crossed wires.

When the majority of Christians say that "salvation by works I'd dead", or something similar, they're highlighting that we no longer have to abide by Mosaic law since we are under grace.
This is true.

The trouble is that what you're saying is that we can behave in any way we like: that we do not need to make an effort to turn away from sin.

However, Christians do have a duty to keep God's commandments (which is different to Mosaic law).

John 14:15
"If you love me, obey my commandments".

The Bible teaches us that if after receiving grace, we continue deliberately sinning and rebelling against God, that Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins.

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

 

[Fastfredy0]

So you do teach works based salvation

So why do you deny it?

I've been reading all these post, so I have a partial understanding (aside: who knows the heart of another)

I believe the @DBurrage does not in anyway believe in salvation by works. I believe "what we have here is failure to communicate - Movie: Cool Hand Luke". DBurrage is not able to articulate exactly what he means IMO. He often makes statements that, when dissected contradict. When questioned be specific definitions and clarifications he often side steps such queries unwittingly.
I respect him as a brother-in-Christ, but not as an expositor of scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, but don't confuse turning away from sin with 'works'.

Salvation based on the merits of our performance is works salvation.

'Salvation by works' doesn't actually have a Biblical definition, but most modern Christians understand it to mean 'keeping Mosaic law'.

Justification by the law is salvation by works and the moral aspect of the law includes good works in general. (Matthew 22:37-40)

Nobody in this thread is arguing for living under Mosaic law since Christians are under grace, and keeping God's commandments should not be confused with living under Mosaic law either.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any good works that Christians accomplish which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

Put it like this: If I'm wrong, then that would imply that Christians can behave as they wish!

Nobody is arguing for a license to sin. Typical straw man argument.

Do you not believe that Christians should do their best to stop rebelling against God?

Of course we should strive to do our best to serve the Lord and abstain from sinful behavior, but our best efforts are not good enough to merit eternal life.

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" (deliberately continue sinning) in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a continuous action that is a matter of practice. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

CONTEXT. The unrighteous draw back to perdition, but the righteous believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)