Not By Works

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Mar 7, 2016
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No sense even going past point one.....which you cannot even get right!

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

THAT not of yourselves is DIRECTED at FAITH......

MAN...you take the cake for sure......!
Ok so God give you faith he give salvation he gives you love he give you all this and more. he also lifts you up when you need carrying...
i guess he also give you the the right to call people a liar by using scripture that doesnt mach what iam saying... he gives you a measure of faith.. meaning he gives you as much as you can handle.. meaning you need to grow more in certain fields befor your allowed to excell in other fields....being saved is a gift and having faith is a belief...

He walks you to the pond he doesnt put you on a lead... you can follow him or not follow... its that simple and it doesnt have to be complicated like pauls teachings... which confuse at times...cause maybe when the scribe was writing his words paul was actually trying to work out the mind of christ ??? just a thought mate and no disrespect for your true hero,,, the one who you favor more than the truth of Jesus.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Ok so God give you faith he give salvation he gives you love he give you all this and more. he also lifts you up when you need carrying...
i guess he also give you the the right to call people a liar by using scripture that doesnt mach what iam saying... he gives you a measure of faith.. meaning he gives you as much as you can handle.. meaning you need to grow more in certain fields befor your allowed to excell in other fields....being saved is a gift and having faith is a belief...

He walks you to the pond he doesnt put you on a lead... you can follow him or not follow... its that simple and it doesnt have to be complicated like pauls teachings... which confuse at times...cause maybe when the scribe was writing his words paul was actually trying to work out the mind of christ ??? just a thought mate and no disrespect for your true hero,,, the one who you favor more than the truth of Jesus.
Some of Pauls teachings confuse me too. What parts confuse you most?
Then there are other parts of Pauls writings that I don't even know where I would be without because they helped me so much!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Some of Pauls teachings confuse me too. What parts confuse you most?
Then there are other parts of Pauls writings that I don't even know where I would be without because they helped me so much!

Peter nailed it when he said of Paul's writings..."They are hard to understand and those who are unlearned in the scriptures do twist them to the point of being judged".....
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I never understood the Bema Seat thing.
where are the passages on that.
I think it's all the same Judgment Day.
rom 14: 10. For we all must stand before the judgment seat (Gk Bemati) of God.


2 Cor 5: 10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat (gk bematos) of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rev 14: 7 For the hour of his judgment (kriseos) has come.

Jude 1: 6 And the angels, who did not stay within their position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kep in eternal chains under darkness until the judgement (Gk Krisin) of that great day

jude 1: 15. to execure judgment (Gk Krisin) on all and to convict all of the ungodly of their deeds of ungodliness....

Two judgments,,

Krisin - judgment on criminals.

Bema - Raised seat, Judgement on Olympian athletes.

If we notice, every time BEMA is used, it speaks of Gods people. being judged for the things they did, and recieveing reward. or lack of reward.

Every time "Krisin" is used, It speaks of criminals. Those not of God, being judged for their crimes, and receiving the punishment based on those crimes'

Bema is a seat of believers.

Krisin will be on unbelievers delivered to Christ (not raised by him) on judgment day.

 
Dec 12, 2013
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rom 14: 10. For we all must stand before the judgment seat (Gk Bemati) of God.


2 Cor 5: 10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat (gk bematos) of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rev 14: 7 For the hour of his judgment (kriseos) has come.

Jude 1: 6 And the angels, who did not stay within their position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kep in eternal chains under darkness until the judgement (Gk Krisin) of that great day

jude 1: 15. to execure judgment (Gk Krisin) on all and to convict all of the ungodly of their deeds of ungodliness....

Two judgments,,

Krisin - judgment on criminals.

Bema - Raised seat, Judgement on Olympian athletes.

If we notice, every time BEMA is used, it speaks of Gods people. being judged for the things they did, and recieveing reward. or lack of reward.

Every time "Krisin" is used, It speaks of criminals. Those not of God, being judged for their crimes, and receiving the punishment based on those crimes'

Bema is a seat of believers.

Krisin will be on unbelievers delivered to Christ (not raised by him) on judgment day.
Thank God for mercy, grace and the blood of Jesus applied by faith......!
 
W

wsblind

Guest
rom 14: 10. For we all must stand before the judgment seat (Gk Bemati) of God.


2 Cor 5: 10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat (gk bematos) of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rev 14: 7 For the hour of his judgment (kriseos) has come.

Jude 1: 6 And the angels, who did not stay within their position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kep in eternal chains under darkness until the judgement (Gk Krisin) of that great day

jude 1: 15. to execure judgment (Gk Krisin) on all and to convict all of the ungodly of their deeds of ungodliness....

Two judgments,,

Krisin - judgment on criminals.

Bema - Raised seat, Judgement on Olympian athletes.

If we notice, every time BEMA is used, it speaks of Gods people. being judged for the things they did, and recieveing reward. or lack of reward.

Every time "Krisin" is used, It speaks of criminals. Those not of God, being judged for their crimes, and receiving the punishment based on those crimes'

Bema is a seat of believers.

Krisin will be on unbelievers delivered to Christ (not raised by him) on judgment day.
Very,very good post.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,108
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Two judgments,,

Krisin - judgment on criminals.

Bema - Raised seat, Judgement on Olympian athletes.

If we notice, every time BEMA is used, it speaks of Gods people. being judged for the things they did, and recieveing reward. or lack of reward.

Every time "Krisin" is used, It speaks of criminals. Those not of God, being judged for their crimes, and receiving the punishment based on those crimes'

Bema is a seat of believers.

Krisin will be on unbelievers delivered to Christ (not raised by him) on judgment day.
Okay, BEMA (JSOC) is future judgement for believers works...

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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rom 14: 10. For we all must stand before the judgment seat (Gk Bemati) of God.
2 Cor 5: 10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat (gk bematos) of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Rev 14: 7 For the hour of his judgment (kriseos) has come.
Jude 1: 6 And the angels, who did not stay within their position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kep in eternal chains under darkness until the judgement (Gk Krisin) of that great day
jude 1: 15. to execure judgment (Gk Krisin) on all and to convict all of the ungodly of their deeds of ungodliness....
Two judgments,,
Krisin - judgment on criminals.
Bema - Raised seat, Judgement on Olympian athletes.
If we notice, every time BEMA is used, it speaks of Gods people. being judged for the things they did, and recieveing reward. or lack of reward.
Every time "Krisin" is used, It speaks of criminals. Those not of God, being judged for their crimes, and receiving the punishment based on those crimes'
Bema is a seat of believers.
Krisin will be on unbelievers delivered to Christ (not raised by him) on judgment day.
Bema is just the place of judgement, a platform or seat, not the type of judgement.

Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:32

Judged here is "krinomenoi" which means passing judgement.
And the target of the judgement is on the people of God.

So to say there are different judgments based on these two greek words appears
to be reading too much into a reference to where the judgement is passed rather than
it is different between believers and non-believers.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Why should God judge His people different than the world?

That is not impartial judgement but being partial.
The Lord says he will forget our sins, if we walk in His ways and believe in His son.

Why is it too difficult to see, finding Gods ways opens the door, learning His intentions
and fellowship is the key. Somehow people want a standard not because they understand
the standard but so they can feel secure. But Christ is asking about insight, love, truth,
ones direction of ones heart. This is not something you can work at like an exam, it is
about change, about finding a path and growing through the process.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Walking in the ways of God is believing in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

Right believing in the finished work of Christ releases His life inside of us to manifest Christ in and through us to others that need to know of His love and grace towards them.

Get this backwards and we create a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness humanistic religion that actually denies the grace of Christ that is needed in our lives in order to transform us by His Holy Spirit and life in us. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
 
Feb 24, 2015
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We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2:3-6

The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever
1 John 2:17

The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
1 John 3:7

Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar.
1 John 3:20

Behaviour and believing and knowing God are linked. We know we know God because
we obey His commands, our hearts love and do not hate.

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21
 
Nov 22, 2015
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It always comes back to Christ. This is a stumbling block to the works-based mindset.

Just what are these commandments? John tells us in his book. #1 = to believe in Christ which means to rely on all that he has already done. #2 = to walk in His love that is in us by the Holy Spirit. Rom. 5:5

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

"Doing what is right" is believing in Christ's work which is right believing and this believing will release the life of Christ which is in us now to live godly and righteously in this present world. Titus 2:11-13

How did Jesus walk while in this earth? By complete dependence on the Father within Him for life and living while on this earth. Jesus said that He could do nothing of Himself but the Father in Him - He does His works. We too walk in dependence on the life of Christ within us just as Jesus did of the Father.

Knowing the way of righteousness is to rely on Christ's righteousness and not trying to establish our own righteousness by what we do or don't do - which the Law is a symbol of.

Christ's righteousness is always a stumbling block to the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness humanistic mindset. The Jews had the same mindset.

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and "seeking to establish their own," they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.




 
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Nov 12, 2015
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rom 14: 10. For we all must stand before the judgment seat (Gk Bemati) of God.


2 Cor 5: 10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat (gk bematos) of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rev 14: 7 For the hour of his judgment (kriseos) has come.

Jude 1: 6 And the angels, who did not stay within their position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kep in eternal chains under darkness until the judgement (Gk Krisin) of that great day

jude 1: 15. to execure judgment (Gk Krisin) on all and to convict all of the ungodly of their deeds of ungodliness....

Two judgments,,

Krisin - judgment on criminals.

Bema - Raised seat, Judgement on Olympian athletes.

If we notice, every time BEMA is used, it speaks of Gods people. being judged for the things they did, and recieveing reward. or lack of reward.

Every time "Krisin" is used, It speaks of criminals. Those not of God, being judged for their crimes, and receiving the punishment based on those crimes'

Bema is a seat of believers.

Krisin will be on unbelievers delivered to Christ (not raised by him) on judgment day.
This is very helpful and interesting. I never knew there were two different words used in Greek for judgement.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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You call it earn i call it a reward... you have to earn peoples trust........ you dont just give trust away to whoever decide to call upon the lord...
Yes Christ earned our trust.

What kind of reward, unmerited/unearned (grace) reward ?

Earn, reward same difference. Christ paid the full wage according to His labor of love called a work of faith .Since it’s His work of faith that works in us giving us the ability to seek after him who has no form he pays the wages, giving us his reward freely, as grace(unmerited) on our part

Heb 11:6 But without faith (Christ’s) it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God (not seen) must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Strongs lexicon....3406 misthapodotes {mis-thap-od-ot'-ace}from 3409 and 591; TDNT - 4:695,599; n m
AV - rewarder 1; 11) one who pays wages, a rewarder
baptism washes you clean but it doesnt give you the final reward it saves you but doesnt give the final reward,,, that is earned according to your deeds...
The baptism of the Holy Spirit (no form) freely give us ears to hear what the Spirit says unto the churches, water baptism is simply a ceremonial law it has no effect on our salvation, just like any cerimoinal law

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Now when i say earned i mean doing good works the works of christ.
Yes Christ’s works were good works, they provide us salvation at no cost to our own selves.

We will not be judged twice .

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

In a spiritual way (unseen) that judgment took place .Christ was found guilty seeing he bore our sin(the whole)

Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
if you have done Good all your life then you have earned the right to be with Christ in his kingdom..
It would seem you are trying to re-define the word grace?

If it was Christ working in the person to both will and do His good pleasure ..He is our confidence. We are to have no confidence in the flesh

Jesus christ defeated sin in the flesh and earned the right to be called the true messiah he earned the right to be called holy... he earned the right to change the way we are saved.. he earned the right for all mankind to follow him..
yes not by works in which we have done.

The words of Jesus
John 6:2928Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29Jesus replied, “This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent.” (in order to do the works of christ you must believe...(not just believe only) John 14:12–14,
Yes, Christ replied, it the the work of God not of our own selves.that we can believe one who has no form ,

In regard to believing but not just believe. Believe as a work of faith, and not believe? Where is the works?

Amen it is the work of God and not that of our own selves that

Yes, belief without works is dead . Christ our faithful creator believed and exercised (worked it out) by pronouncing what it was that he desired to create by His eternal word... and there was.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do.
Yes as new creatures that have passed from eternal death to eternal life we given a new spirit that could never die. Christians will do the works Christ did just as he the will of the father, not seen. It’s the kind of food the will of the father the disciples knew not of . If He wills it and we perform it, it shows we have passed from eternal damnation to eternal life.
Men who do not have the born again Spirit of Christ will see the second death .

Free will for a Christian is to do the good pleasure of His will . When Adam and Eve did the good pleasure of the serpent. God left them to their own-selves. their soul died,

John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

He performs in us the things he appoints to us to both will and do His good pleasure (imputed righteousness ).
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This is very helpful and interesting. I never knew there were two different words used in Greek for judgement.
Thats why we need too be careful. And why is thin ki can be confused. Especially if we believe an English type to is perfect (i.e. Kevin only)
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
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I see the blind still view salvation as a reward instead of a gift.....let's just chunk what the Bible states....that if it is based upon work (a reward) it is no longer GRACE.......going to be a lot of people (plenteous in number) who get cast into the proverbial lake-o-fire because they in error believed they could EARN salvation by works......
I never said I am forced to keep the commandments I said I do because I am redeemed. It is not by works any man should boast. Is it because I say in my inward man I keep the Torah and agree fully with G-d that you are saying I am trying to be saved by works? Heaven forbid the flesh inherit the Kingdom my body daily wars against me and it is controlled by sin so I am a slave in my inward man to his word that I may be found blameless at his coming at the end of this age and not continue to be a slave to sin.
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
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In other words I would rather be enslaved to righteousness then enslaved to sin.
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
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Also I have experienced not knowing even my own intentions, my deepest intention. I have to continue in faith,(Torah) at that point as my only guide. The understanding of keeping some aspect of the Torah may elude me for years until finally for example washing your feet in the shower it hits you, "O that's why Yeshua said all I need to do is wash your feet... The path we walk.. Duh(confounded by own ignorance). Lol true story happened to me. In love Grace and Shalom to you all John Talmid. Thanks for loving me still. You may not realize love is what you put in to someone not what you get.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Yes Christ earned our trust.

What kind of reward, unmerited/unearned (grace) reward ?

Earn, reward same difference. Christ paid the full wage according to His labor of love called a work of faith .Since it’s His work of faith that works in us giving us the ability to seek after him who has no form he pays the wages, giving us his reward freely, as grace(unmerited) on our part

Heb 11:6 But without faith (Christ’s) it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God (not seen) must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Strongs lexicon....3406 misthapodotes {mis-thap-od-ot'-ace}from 3409 and 591; TDNT - 4:695,599; n m
AV - rewarder 1; 11) one who pays wages, a rewarder


The baptism of the Holy Spirit (no form) freely give us ears to hear what the Spirit says unto the churches, water baptism is simply a ceremonial law it has no effect on our salvation, just like any cerimoinal law



Yes Christ’s works were good works, they provide us salvation at no cost to our own selves.

We will not be judged twice .

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

In a spiritual way (unseen) that judgment took place .Christ was found guilty seeing he bore our sin(the whole)

Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.


It would seem you are trying to re-define the word grace?

If it was Christ working in the person to both will and do His good pleasure ..He is our confidence. We are to have no confidence in the flesh



yes not by works in which we have done.



Yes, Christ replied, it the the work of God not of our own selves.that we can believe one who has no form ,

In regard to believing but not just believe. Believe as a work of faith, and not believe? Where is the works?

Amen it is the work of God and not that of our own selves that

Yes, belief without works is dead . Christ our faithful creator believed and exercised (worked it out) by pronouncing what it was that he desired to create by His eternal word... and there was.



Yes as new creatures that have passed from eternal death to eternal life we given a new spirit that could never die. Christians will do the works Christ did just as he the will of the father, not seen. It’s the kind of food the will of the father the disciples knew not of . If He wills it and we perform it, it shows we have passed from eternal damnation to eternal life.
Men who do not have the born again Spirit of Christ will see the second death .

Free will for a Christian is to do the good pleasure of His will . When Adam and Eve did the good pleasure of the serpent. God left them to their own-selves. their soul died,

John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

He performs in us the things he appoints to us to both will and do His good pleasure (imputed righteousness ).
garree hi.... its all good scripture but all means all,,, it doesnt mean those who are in christ will not be judged,,, where just going round in circles im afraid. Scripture ,,,,,,,,,,,for we are to judge those inside of the church. and expel the evil one amongst us... you can judge rightouessly to,, now that said,, where all going to be judged and recieve are due.. (why is this nesacary,,, well youve come to christ today,,, and you may recieve his blessings and be kitted out for your walk ahead,,, ie eternal life in christ.. but come tomorrow you could just decide to terrorise somebodies faith of truth,,, which is we will all be judged on judgement day.. all means all.. we will all recieve are due whether Good or bad.. we must all keep the faith to the end,,, Garree i really am only intrested in the direct words of Jesus.. no amount of scripture trying to work Gods final reward out out is going to pursuade me other wise..
 
Mar 7, 2016
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It always comes back to Christ. This is a stumbling block to the works-based mindset.

Just what are these commandments? John tells us in his book. #1 = to believe in Christ which means to rely on all that he has already done. #2 = to walk in His love that is in us by the Holy Spirit. Rom. 5:5

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

"Doing what is right" is believing in Christ's work which is right believing and this believing will release the life of Christ which is in us now to live godly and righteously in this present world. Titus 2:11-13

How did Jesus walk while in this earth? By complete dependence on the Father within Him for life and living while on this earth. Jesus said that He could do nothing of Himself but the Father in Him - He does His works. We too walk in dependence on the life of Christ within us just as Jesus did of the Father.

Knowing the way of righteousness is to rely on Christ's righteousness and not trying to establish our own righteousness by what we do or don't do - which the Law is a symbol of.

Christ's righteousness is always a stumbling block to the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness humanistic mindset. The Jews had the same mindset.

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and "seeking to establish their own," they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.




Ok you say you believe in christs words then why dont you believe that those who keep the faith to the end will be saved ?... its a clear instruction from God him self..

throughout the old testement people had to be washed clean,,, in festivals and rituals,, it was a continusly ongoing process.. this was all the work Of God,,, to remind those to renew them selves,,

He carrys this process on in the new testement with renew your mind daily,, and die to self daily,, allso to practice what yopu preach, why ???????????? because you know one can fall away,,, its not rocket science and its not complicated,...