Not By Works

[JIMBO43]

1 John 1-16?

yup does 1 john 1-16 apply to those born of the spirit ?



[h=1][/h] [h=3]I Am the True Vine[/h]15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You are my friends if you do what I command you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]No longer do I call you servants,[SUP][a][/SUP] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.


does this apply to those born of the spirit [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned

 

[Ahwatukee]

well always sounds like i couldnt care when ever someone starts there sentence with well this way its often the case.. and judging from your lack of hope of meeting Gods standards i would say that is so.

Honestly JimBO43, I can't figure out what your disagreement is. This should be simple to understand. God knows who's heart is turned towards him and is staying in step with the Spirit and who isn't.

We are all in the process of being transformed into the image of Christ. Everyone has different levels of fruitfulness. And for the person who remains in Christ, God continues to refine (prune) that person throughout their lives.

 

[JIMBO43]

christ will not give up . He won’t let up until the last enemy is down —whether by fellowship or salvation or by death its self

 

[JIMBO43]

Honestly JimBO43, I can't figure out what your disagreement is. This should be simple to understand. God knows who's heart is turned towards him and is staying in step with the Spirit and who isn't.

We are all in the process of being transformed into the image of Christ. Everyone has different levels of fruitfulness. And for the person who remains in Christ, God continues to refine (prune) that person throughout their lives.

yup a couldnt care less attitude and an attitude that doesnt want to understand or shall i say pretends they dont understand as to say lord i didnt know thats why i sin...


or lord i sin coz i know i still have time left in me for you to change me ...

ARE QUITE FRANKLY JUST AN EXCUSE TO KEEP PLAYING GOD...

 

[mailmandan]

yup does 1 john 1-16 apply to those born of the spirit ?

You mean John 15:1-16, not 1 John 1-16.

I Am the True Vine

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You are my friends if you do what I command you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]No longer do I call you servants,[SUP][a][/SUP] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

does this apply to those born of the spirit [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned

I agree with AT Robertson - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

Not all who set out to follow Jesus and claim to be Christians and are in some way connected to Christ are genuine believers (John 6:64-71; John 13:10–11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine and are cut off.

 

[JIMBO43]

2Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. 3And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.…

THE LINE OF JUDAH will be restablished and the people of JUDAH who are now scattered around the world and faslty growing in numbers will be called to duty.. to reestablish the law. and everthing written in the law will be full filled..


And christ will not stop until every enemy is down..


There is no way we are not in the last days now with churches allowing gay marriage..


the dawn of the days of judah when judah took the promised land are once more upon us..

 

[JIMBO43]

but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

WHOEVER DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME .............. WHOEVER WHOEVER WHOEVER AND WHEN EVER

tHE CHIDLREN WHO ARE HIS DO NOT CARRY ON IN SIN.. UNLESS THERE IN CAPTIVITY..OF SOME SOUGHT..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Originally Posted by JIMBO43

he sent his son so you may have a chance of eternal life and a hope of expectation to as dc puts it..


hangon what has been all the argument about then if you say your faith is the same as mine...


In your faith do you realise as long as you stay faithfull to God,,,,,,,,,God will stay faithfull to you ?...


And in your faith do You realise if you turn that of the way of satan on your own merrits that you can fall out of favor with God and be banished from his Kingdom for ever more. ?

And in your faith do you realise That,,,,, seeing as angels with super entrusted powers can be banished from the kingdom then so can the so called done deal..

My faith is in christ, Not my ability to be good. My Ability to ot fall into sin, My Ability to maintain myself. My Ability to keep the faith, Not my ability to do anything.

In God.

Again, Where is yours?

 

[FranC]

Honestly JimBO43, I can't figure out what your disagreement is. This should be simple to understand. God knows who's heart is turned towards him and is staying in step with the Spirit and who isn't.

We are all in the process of being transformed into the image of Christ. Everyone has different levels of fruitfulness. And for the person who remains in Christ, God continues to refine (prune) that person throughout their lives.

Here's the problem...:

Jimbo does not have a disagreement with the bible.

It is those who do not understand good deeds, of which Jesus spoke many times, that have a disagreement with the New Testament and the words of Jesus.

Here, again, are the words of Jesus, as Jimbo posted them:


2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.


It's very simple.
IF we abide in Christ, we are able to bear fruit (do good deeds or works).
If we bear fruit, God prumes us to make us better, which is what you're saying.

If WE DO NOT bear fruit, we are thrown away like a branch and we wither and are gathered up and burned.


What could be more clear?
Did Jesus not know what He was saying??


(I will not remain on this thread)

 

[Ahwatukee]

yup a couldnt care less attitude and an attitude that doesnt want to understand or shall i say pretends they dont understand as to say lord i didnt know thats why i sin...


or lord i sin coz i know i still have time left in me for you to change me ...

ARE QUITE FRANKLY JUST AN EXCUSE TO KEEP PLAYING GOD...

And yet you continue to avoid my question. What are you in disagreement about? You have not made that clear. And please don't judge my faithfulness. You know absolutely nothing about my life in Christ.

Also, please explain as to how I am playing God? I've only provided scripture to you in response to your posts. You're not making any sense!

 

[mailmandan]

WHOEVER DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME .............. WHOEVER WHOEVER WHOEVER AND WHEN EVER

tHE CHIDLREN WHO ARE HIS DO NOT CARRY ON IN SIN.. UNLESS THERE IN CAPTIVITY..OF SOME SOUGHT..

The merely cosmetic connection which bears no fruit does not abide. The spiritual and vital connection which bears fruit, abides.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not talking works to keep or maintain salvation and never have...


the real point of contention is that Jesus and Father expect you do something with the gift after you receive it......and....that requires bearing fruit and abiding and knowing Jesus and Father....and not simply burying the talent until he comes back and then say...lookee what I got.....

That is the whole point, which takes grace and the power of grace, and turns it into some legalistic religious function that is not of Christ.

God does not expect you to do anything, He saves you to bring you into a right relationship in him, then he tells you it is your position in him which causes you to do good. To work, And to love.

Religion is not the answer, Our position in Christ and what he has done, Is doing, and will do in us is.

 

[FranC]

You mean John 15:1-16, not 1 John 1-16.

I agree with AT Robertson - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

Not all who set out to follow Jesus and claim to be Christians and are in some way connected to Christ are genuine believers (John 6:64-71; John 13:10–11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine and are cut off.

AT Robertson.
Who that?

See. If you would just read the words and stop listening to people you'd be better off!

This is delicious. You said that he said...:

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Let's look again at what Jesus says...:

John 15:1-2

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.

2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Why bring up what you would call a strawman?

Who's speaking about some before and after that Jesus is NOT speaking about.

Jesus said that EVERY BRANCH (WHOEVER) IN HIM, (if one is attached to the vine, he is born again and getting his strength from Jesus) DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT, the branch (the person) will be taken away, will wither and die, and will be cut off, gathered and burned.

We don't need anyone to come up with some odd explanation of the above.

IT'S AS CLEAR AS DAY... For those who wish to understand it.


(not staying here, no response necessary)

 

[Ahwatukee]

WHOEVER DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME .............. WHOEVER WHOEVER WHOEVER AND WHEN EVER

tHE CHIDLREN WHO ARE HIS DO NOT CARRY ON IN SIN.. UNLESS THERE IN CAPTIVITY..OF SOME SOUGHT..

The above is false! We are all covered sinners. As those in Christ we are sinners, not that we have an attitude that since we are in Christ we are fee to sin, but because we are sinners just as God's word claims:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

So, are you claiming that you are without sin? There is a difference between walking in Christ and committing sin, vs. those who are turned away from Christ and are willfully sinning. Those who have gone back into living according to the sinful nature. Remaining in the Vine doesn't mean that a believer doesn't have sin.

If you are going to claim that a believer in Christ has no sin, then refer you to the the above scripture.

 

[FranC]

The merely cosmetic connection which bears no fruit does not abide. The spiritual and vital connection which bears fruit, abides.

Whether you want to call it a cosmetic connection - whatever that is since Jesus is speaking about persons that are

IN HIM and I do believe Jesus understood about persons being IN HIM...

or if you want to call it a spiritual and vital connection --

the point is that the branch IS CONNECTED TO THE VINE, meaning the person is saved...

and the bearing of fruit is required or the branch will be cut off, it will wither and die, and be burned.

Simple to understand.

When one wants to.

Bye.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But that's the recoil that happens because no one can discern whether any of the works advocates will commit, as you just did, to that simple proclamation. It triggers a legitimate defense mechanism that true bible interpretation cannot abide with. If you read through this thread, many have asked for this simple clarity and no one will commit. So therefore, that leaves us with a sense of non committal which leads us to the assumption, based on logic, that the "workers" want to supplement salvation with something that is abominable.

The mere fact anyone claims salvation can be lost.

1. States God is not powerful enough to do what he promised (finish the work he started until the day of Christ)
2. States God is a liar (he did not perfect forever those who are being sanctified, if he did, then they are saved forever)
3. States Gods promises are not reliable (Jesus said whoever trusted in him will never hunger, never thirst, Never die, Live forever, and given his ASSURANCE he will raise them from the dead)
4. States God makes mistakes (he gave eternal life to someone he knew he would have to take back. because of sin, lack of faith or whatever reason one gives for why the eternal life will be surrendered)
States Gods pledge is meaningless (he said he gave the seal until the day of redemption. And never said he would take it back for any reason)
5. States we are more powerful than God (we can pluck ourselves out of his hands)
6. States eternal life is not eternal, but conditional.

About the only form which I would try not to argue about much is the form which says a person who Denys Christ lost salvation. Because no one believes and antichrist is saved, (however, I would not judge them, because I do not know their Heart, only God does (the one who says they deny Christ, peter denied Christ, and Christ never asked him to repent)

Al the rest, They slander us and say we love sin, They say we hate works, We condemn anyone who teaches works will be done by Gods children.. Yet get angry when we question what their faith is truly in.. and try to tell them we think they offend God and his character by their very belief.

So it is ok for them to judge, but how dare us say what we think..

Sadly, it has been going on since the beginning of the church, and it will go on until Christ returns.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gifts are by definition not examples. OSAS is a trigger term, let's dispense with it.
1 Corinthians 1
8 He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And technically, you and I need that insurance and that box checked. It does not eliminate us from the equation, it's a completion. Now we can live in the confidence that He purchased.

Amen brother, this is the means of christian growth according to scripture. If we do not have this confidence, We will either become stale. Stagnant, or unneffective workers in the kingdom of God.

Satan's greatest tactic is to teach a child of God lack of assurance, if he can do this, He cn turn them to religion, and away from God. And in essence, remove much of the power of God from that persons life.

 

[mailmandan]

Whether you want to call it a cosmetic connection - whatever that is since Jesus is speaking about persons that are

IN HIM and I do believe Jesus understood about persons being IN HIM...

or if you want to call it a spiritual and vital connection --

the point is that the branch IS CONNECTED TO THE VINE, meaning the person is saved...

and the bearing of fruit is required or the branch will be cut off, it will wither and die, and be burned.

Simple to understand.

When one wants to.

Bye.

I already explained about IN HIM "in the vine" (not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established when Christ spoke those words) and the TWO KINDS OF CONNECTIONS with Christ as the vine in post #23532.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Likewise....Worker is a trigger term, lets also dispense with it....

You do what everyone else does...circle back to initial salvation.....


1 Cor 1.4-8

[SUP]4 [/SUP]I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, [SUP]5 [/SUP]that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, [SUP]6 [/SUP]even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]8 [/SUP]who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Technically, I really do not need the box checked or insurance at all...The Spirit bears witness to me I am a Son of God....and the Spirit keeps me, right?

I agree, we are so busy talking about works and OSAS we can ot talk about true spiritual growth and sanctification and what helps us in our walk.

 

[PHart]

My faith is in christ, Not my ability to be good. My Ability to ot fall into sin, My Ability to maintain myself. My Ability to keep the faith, Not my ability to do anything.

Just because none of this is possible without God does not preclude our responsibility to do all those things. We do it through a reliance on the power of God, not our ability, surely. But, generally speaking, He won't do anything for you that you do not seek him in and rely on him to do.

This is where so many Christians go wrong, terribly wrong. They take a false comfort out of not seeking him for the power to be everything they are to be, not realizing that their laziness is really just a lazy lack of faith in, and a contempt for the grace they have received. Grace to seek God and be changed, not grace to live comfortably in ongoing sin as the church is being taught grace is these days.