Not By Works

[Stunnedbygrace]

Which is? What is the eternal life food?

Jess.. must be a typo...

It is those that work iniquity.... the idea that the Messiah will say to His Faithful depart from me you did works and did not believe in me is absurd.... quite ridiculous tbh....

if those in unbelief were to offer works of the dead husband In place of Faith in the Messiah then.. yes.. makes sense... but a servant is not shunned by their Master for doing what he asked them to do....

You know, it occurs to me that for someone who never floundered around in legalism or never actually became a foolish Galatian for some time, (and we don't all fall into the same ditches I guess) maybe they can't understand what goes on in someone who was unbound from it. Some of us spent many miserable years there. We have this burning desire to help anyone we find where we once were, up out of it.

But it's hard to understand something if you personally didn't get sunk down in it...you can try to put yourself in their shoes but...I don't know if you can ever fully understand where they're coming from...

Just a thought that occurred to me.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

it drives me nuts!!!!!

I'm seeing great improvement brother!
Yesterday you posted a three word message with no typos. Here you have typed FOUR words without a typo!

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by FlSnookman7

We can never "out-sin" God's grace..

Romans 5:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

[SUP]21 [/SUP] so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hey G777!

I was going through this thread, the posts I hadn't read and I came to the picture of that somber looking guy you post from time to time and I decided to google him.

I found the first chapter of one of his books (D Martin Lloyd Jones) and he described that "second freedom" that came to me last week or so, and get this - he described it in the same way I did! The man whose sight was given to him in two stages!!

I'm going to see if his book isn't too awful expensive on kindle because I just sold a lot of my furniture to an interior designer!

He has an excellent teaching on that we are dead to sin. Here it is on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTUv0zitbkw

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree no child of GOD will go to the throne and offer their works... and you are mixing up the Faithful with the unbelieving....

By hearing and doing what Christ said to do... are we unfaithful? Really? Does not work in real time. Based on verses teaching the New in place of Old Testament it works... but you can not declare a person does not believe in Christ because they do what He taught.. or set their to do what He taught them.... no... it don't hold up.... and for too long too many have misused scripture to teach against works in one breath.. yet say works come by Faith... who are any here to declare a person's work came not by Faith?


Because I believe we are to Keep the Commandments of GOD because the Messiah taught this am I void of Faith? If not for the Grace of GOD I was dead in sin... but GOD be thanked for His unmerited favour that I was made New to walk the path set before me in Spirit and Truth.

It's a fine line that they are very focused on, because it's important.

I believe we are to keep Gods' commandments too. But I tried in my own strength to do this and it just beached me, man, because no matter how hard I tried to do what Jesus said and not have anger in my heart at others, I would always fail at some point because people are mean and selfish and eventually, you're going to get mad at them inside yourself. And Jesus says, you've then murdered them. So Gods' definition of murder is very different from the worlds definition of murder.

And yeah, I know there is such a thing as righteous anger, but for it to be righteous anger, your heart has to be completely pure of sneaky little motives you try to act like they aren't there. Just a tiny little bit of pride, selfishness or self-seeking makes it not righteous anger really.

So when you say you believe we are to obey Gods' commandments because Jesus taught this, how do you propose we keep even just the one to not murder based on Gods' definition of murder?

 

[PHart]

Well that isn't even true.

No, seriously. How is "we are to remember that our hope is only in Christ" not the equivalent of continuing to believe in Christ?"

Go quote us all some church fathers who believe in your works gospel, and, who believe in your take that we must not stop believing or we won't be saved.

Why, is the Bible not good enough for you? I don't study the church fathers after the Apostles. The Bible has been sufficient for me thus far:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The Bible says it plainly: You are saved if you hold fast the word. You are presently saved if you are presently holding fast the word. Feel free to check the verb tenses. They are present tense: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077002

The fact remains: your gospel is false, and if you don't exert effort to believe every millisecond you'll end up in hell. Thus Christ didn't really ever save even one person, it is all up to them.

Then that means Christ didn't really ever save even one person when we first started our believing because continued believing is simply the exact same believing you started when you first believed, not new believing. If our believing doesn't save us now it didn't save us then either--it's the exact same believing.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi SOF...That`s what i am saying...If we stay in the truth at all times, then when we fall, slip, back slide what ever people want to call it, it is then we become to know the truth our Lord has told us because He picks us back up to march on because we are putting our faith in action by believing...The other night when i drank i knew i should not off, the next days ahead i would normally be under condemnation from the evil one because i never wore my helmet...This time i did wear my helmet, i rested in God while He battled for me because i trusted in Him and the evil one fled...I can only see this more now and i think to myself that what happens to alot of people who slip, they stay under the condemnation, and that weakens our faith...I am so delighted in the Lord that He has opened my eyes to this, i feel like i have grown an inch in Him lol...xox...Loosing ones faith i believe is not putting the word to work on our behalf, where James says, Faith without works is dead, i think he maybe talking about times like this, maybe not, but thats what i feel...xox...

Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of all of them.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi all...I have been thinking to myself that as i am not so grown in the Word yet, i am not going to watch videos of certain preachers because when i looked on line, i found people say certain names are preaching a false gospel, so i have decided that that only true way to grow is by listening to my Lord speak to me from His leading, and that is my faithful Bible...I am not grown enough to know when false things are being said , and what i do know is it is dangerous for me to follow such things...I like being in here because it`s hard core to me , many posters post with Scripture so i can read a long and check things out for myself...Maybe i should of posted this in an other thread, but seeing this is the place where alot of videos get posted, i put it here...Most of you in here are wonderful people in knowledge of the word, i have learned so much and hope i can be well read one day, but for now, i am sticking with my Bible and let the Lord lead me...xox...

Hi Rosemaryx,

The Holy Spirit will lead you into all the truth as you rely on Him to teach you the things of Christ. He will be faithful to you......

One thing to keep in mind when reading things on the "internet" about ministers. Go to hear what they are saying themselves to make sure what they are saying is true.

We have seen many twist what is being said by others or took parts of what is said and left out the context it was said in - and that could change the meaning of what was originally quoted.

There are lot's of self-proclaimed heretic hunters on the internet. To them everyone is a heretic that has a different view on some subject.

For example to those that believe in speaking in tongues and actually do pray in tongues on a daily basis to their Father - they have been called heretics by whole denominations because they don't agree with this doctrine.

There are websites dedicated to the heretic Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.S. Lewis, John McArthur, Paul Washer, Joseph Prince, Dr. Michael Brown, Justin Peters, Bill Johnson, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Andrew Wommack...etc..basically anyone who is known has a website dedicated to their "heresies".

There are even websites dedicated to the heretic apostle Paul because his epistles "conflict" with some of Jesus' words in their opinion.

Basically these self-proclaimed heretic hunters have a beef about some thing with what someone else believes and so they are now "heretics".

Their motto is: "If people don't believe some scriptures in the way that"they"do - they are heretics and they try to prove it with "their" version of what the scriptures say..

" This is not what we were taught in "my" church or in our whole church tradition.

It's the nature of the beast. Martin Luther was a heretic to the catholic church at the time because for 1100 years prior to Luther they had always "believed" the same way.

Where these types cross the line is when they turn a disagreement that they have with someone doctrinally on a secondary issue and turn it into "So and so is a false teacher and they are in error and a heretic/satanist/controlled by a demon" type stuff.

 

[PHart]

Go quote us all some church fathers who believe in your works gospel, and, who believe in your take that we must not stop believing or we won't be saved.

Oh, by the way. I'm not teaching a works gospel.

The works gospel is defined as earning your salvation through the works of the law. Last time I checked 'believing' was in no way shape or form a work of the law that could not justify. In fact, Paul said believing was the ONLY thing that could justify and directly contrasted it with the works of the law. But you and others keep insisting believing is a damnable work of the works gospel.

If you can produce the scripture that says that presently believing to be saved is a work of the damnable works gospel I will cease posting in all Christian Forums forever and I will even publicly acknowledge in it's own thread that I was wrong. I have posted where the Bible says you are saved if you are presently believing. That'a hardly a works gospel, especially since Paul himself, the author of the faith vs. works doctrine in the Bible, said that.

 

[Grace777x70]

Some things cannot come from a change of mind after things have been put into being as an established truth.

Can someone by an "act of their will" or "changing their mind" un-born themselves from being a human being?

Can they one day say and think - "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will by changing my mind - I am un-borning myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind and there is.. )

Can some one by "an act of their will" through the "changing of their mind" stop being a son/daughter to someone? Of course not - they will always be the child of their parents once they are born whether they like it or not.

We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lives and abides forever.

We cannot "un-child" ourselves because we get sick in our minds from being God's child because of Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

( we can become sick in our minds from bad teaching - such as our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell if they don't mature

Just as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human says or thinks in their sick mind - but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )

This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.

Following God's commandments to us will be a natural result of being in Christ as we grow up in Him.

We are looking at what "we do" when we say that we lose salvation for going to heaven instead of what "Jesus has already done". It is a works-based doctrine that actually denies the work and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with you and in you forever. Now, is Jesus a liar? That's a question to ask ourselves.

Our Father will perfect that which concerns us for it is He that is at work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. I'll trust His love in us to "guide us" through life. Phil. 2:13

There is also discipline of the Lord ( child-training in Greek - not "un-childing" them as children ) This proves that we are legitimate children of God.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes i remember...I was going to add the bit also, i wish i did now ...Lesson learned...When ever posting, be sure to add the whole point or else we just type half the story lol...And it makes me wonder about his brother who was angry at his father because he was saying like he was the faithful son and became jealous,i will have to read more into that tomorrow, there is a big lesson in that some where...xox...

It just occurs to me that this son was mad because he had stayed and been working and yet here comes the one who hadn't been doing any work and he just waltzes back home and gets love and forgiveness and a feast...it kind of fits somehow with the whole thread...interesting.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The older son engaged in religion. He was with His father, but he didn't have joy.

The younger son engaged in rebellion. He left his father because he thought it would be more fun on his own.

Compare the two with the fruit of knowledge of good and evil:

Good: This is what I should be doing to make myself right before God: religion.
Evil: This is what I shouldn't be doing, thinking our way is better than His: rebellion.

Both of them lead to ... nakedness.

Nakedness is hiding in the bushes from God's presence. Neither acknowledge Him. Both hide from Him out of fear of their own nakedness.

This leads to... being covered by Christ... He is our righteousness, He covers our nakedness. So that we can come out of the bushes and once again walk with Him in the cool of the garden. No longer looking at ourselves (and our nakedness), but upon Him and His goodness.

Astounding!!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And because the father rejoiced in the fact that his son came back home, he did not condemn him for his wicked ways...Just like Jesus is always there for us, He never leaves us nor forsakes us, it is us who take steps away from Him, not He who walks away...xox...

And even if we do take steps away, He will leave the 99 to find the one (did I get that verse right?)

 

[PennEd]

Cee,

The word knew is not found in Vs 7.21 it is found in Vs 23, right?

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ [SUP]

23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

The greek is ginōskō and is is used over 200x in scripture and it means:

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
   1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
   1. to understand
   2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4. to become acquainted with, to know

The take away from Matt 7-21-23 is not that they did works, it is the fact he did not know them.....

Knew them here means to be understand and know someone to the point you are one with them....

In truth, Jesus will say depart from me because were not one with me and I was not one with you....

This is about relationship post salvation and nothing to do with salvation or refuting works to obtain salvation....and everything to do with intimate relationship...Matt 7.23 rightly divides with Rev 3.20, which has been used by the church for years as a salvation scripture, but it is furthest from the truth....it is all about relationship post salvation...

It seems to em you guys have a real hard time interpreting the difference between per-condition sinner and post-salvation saint on the walk to sonship...

Have to seriously depart from you here. These people weren't saved. Where did you get that idea from? Am I understanding you correctly? You think these people were saved? If they NEVER knew Him then by definition they were never born again.

If that is the case, then it appears you really DO believe works keep you saved. No condescension meant at all, but I feel a little grieved by your post here.

 

[Grace777x70]

The apostle Paul says that we are saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit the day we hear the message of Christ and believe it.

I am amazed at how many "unbelieving believers" we have around us.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple but it is not "cheap grace" or "greasy grace" or "easy believe-ism" or "hyper" or any other term used to disparage the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work.

It cost our Lord his life and blood to obtain an eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12 and it is incorruptible.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is He like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

No, of course Jesus is not a liar despite what others try to say.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself. We don't "seal" ourselves nor do we "unseal" ourselves. That is a false man-made doctrine that denies the work of Christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The older son represents the Pharisees. They never left the father's house in an open rebellion and riotous living in a squandering of the inheritance.



The Prodigal Son represents the tax collectors and prostitutes. They are the ones who turned away and squandered the inheritance. And they are the ones who came back home at the preaching of John the Baptist.


"Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him." (Matthew 21:31-32 NASB)

This one is astounding also!!

 

[PennEd]

This idea you can lose a free gift you never earned is exactly why Catholics go to the bedside of a dying person, so they can get saved again before they die. If we truly believe people can lose their salvation, and they spend eternity in hell, let's monitor the hospitals to make sure no one dies saved, but lost their salvation, and got saved, and lost their salvation, etc. This is exactly why Catholics have you pray to the saints so they will implore God to keep you saved as you live day by day.

And then to make things even more crazy, the same people who say you have to stay saved, then go on to attack what belief means... adding these parameters like mental assent vs true heart belief... how do you even know? Silence from that crowd. It doesn't really matter as long as you believe you can lose your salvation, well then you must be holy because you're trying really hard to stay saved so you must be saved. And you're not a sinner like those other OSAS sinners. Because you know they believe they can sin and still go to Heaven so they must be the WORST sinners alive.

Something along the lines of, "They give people a license to sin!! Don't they know that people have to fear for their salvation??? That's the only way people will stay saved!!"

The focus is on staying saved, staying holy, keep believing... keep pushing, keep contending, stay in the faith or you're going to burn for eternity... yet none of that focus is about God. It's about self-driven effort.

This has been a continual tradition in the Church. And then we wonder why Christians struggle with loving one another. Because so few know the love of God for themselves. But they sure know how to LOOK holy and tell people how much a SINNER they are. They are REAL good at that. But loving people? The ONE Command Jesus gave us? Ehhhhh... that's okay we can just ignore that one. I see it ALL the time.

So keep telling people what's wrong with them and I'll keep telling people what's right with them in Christ. And let's see which message bears more fruit.

I think this post needs to bumped daily!

 

[Seohce]

Jesus has broken the curse of death thru His sacrifice on the cross once and for ALL. It is not for all the believers only.

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Hebrews 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from THE SINS COMMITTED UNDER THE FIRST COVENANT.

CHRIST’S SALVATION WAS FOR ALL MEN ESPECIALLY OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our HOPE in the living God, who is the SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, and especially of those who believe.

OUR LORD JESUS CONQUERED THE GRAVE(DEATH) TO BRING ETERNAL LIFE.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

SO THROUGH HIS DEATH ALL THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED IN THE LAST DAY AS A RESULT OF THE JUSTIFICATION THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was CONDEMNATION FOR ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was JUSTIFICATION THAT BRINGS LIFE FOR ALL MEN.

Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION.

IT IS CLEAR THAT JUSTIFICATION IS FOR ALL MEN AND IT GAVE US HOPE UNTO SALVATION THROUGH FAITH THAT WORKETH IN LOVE(OBEDIENCE)

Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a son, he learned OBEDIENCE from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL THOSE WHO OBEY HIM.

1 John 5:1-3 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. THIS IS LOVE FOR GOD: TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS. And his commands are not burdensome,

1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but WITH ACTIONS AND IN TRUTH.

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION to those who are waiting for him.

John 14:15 “if you love me, you will obey what I command.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET US FREE.(john 8:32)

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

John 12:48-50 There is a judge for the one who REJECTS ME AND DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In my mind I tried to reason with Jonah to turn around and go God's way, but it took God's grace and a huge fish to accomplish that, thanks for asking....

Gosh...this is wonderful. It sounds like...song lyrics.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Have to seriously depart from you here. These people weren't saved. Where did you get that idea from? Am I understanding you correctly? You think these people were saved? If they NEVER knew Him then by definition they were never born again.

If that is the case, then it appears you really DO believe works keep you saved. No condescension meant at all, but I feel a little grieved by your post here.

Not sure how you got that he was saying they were saved...