Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sometimes they do not come back but He goes and finds them

Because He is faithful

Amen, He leaves the whole flock to go find the sheep who wander off. He calls them BY NAME, they KNOW HIS VOICE, and they follow him (willingly)

those who are not his sheep do not hear his voice, say they do not return.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
HAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH wow man.....you really do not understand justified do you...nor the fact that EVERY SIN was already covered and paid for in full.....I have heard it all now.....I have to do this I have to do that I have to keep on keeping on or I lose that which is eternal.....wow................

It is crazy, I stand before God, all my sin is forgiven, He looks at my works, and says depart from me, for I knew you at one time, but you lost faith in me, so I left you go, You should have kept trusting me. But you did not, so depart!

"But God you promised you would never let go"

God reply, I did, But you pulled yourself away from me, I tried to hold on tight, but you overpowered me. I could not hold on anymore.


 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Everybody who believes is secure in his hands and kept by his power, for it is "through faith" that you are kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5). Yet you go on record as saying that to be 'kept by the power of God through faith' (1 Peter 1:5) means I'm trying to save myself. When did believing become a work of the damnable works gospel?

Your kept by the power of God, But if you walk away in unbelief, Then The power of God is powerless to bring you back.

think about what your saying man. Please.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I've long sided with you on OSAS, but over time have gone to the eternal security of the believer (genuine). I've been reading the word of God lately and there are so many warnings that such would be meaningless to give if there was no risk involved. I've learned that one can forsake the Lord, it is not that a man has lost it, but has chosen in his heart the evils of this world and has tossed aside the Lord for the lusts therein.
Then God made a mistake, and gave you something he called free, and then because you did not earn it. Took it away,

You can not give a gift back, it is still yours, You may fail to be blessed by the gift, because it is not in your hands and your not using it, but it is still yours. The owner does not take it back.

The warning are not for believers. They are for non believers who are in the church who have not yet taken that step,. Paul and John both speak about how we are not the ones who fall to perdition, we are not the ones who walk away, we are not the ones who need to be taught,

You never assume each person in your body are true believers, you must always give a warning to all, even though the few are the ones who need to hear it, because you may not know who they are.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sorry to disappoint you, those words hit me right in the stomach. I do believe in eternal security for the believer. The debate then is whether one's belief is sincere, and that is a task the Bible tells us to look into. To examine ourselves, to make sure of our calling and election. To be fruit inspectors of ourselves. I, no doubt, hold to our salvation is by grace through faith.

If the faith was not sincere, there was no new birth, salvation was not lost, it was never attained.

Huge difference than saying people can give away their eternal life after they truly received it.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Then God made a mistake, and gave you something he called free, and then because you did not earn it. Took it away,

You can not give a gift back, it is still yours, You may fail to be blessed by the gift, because it is not in your hands and your not using it, but it is still yours. The owner does not take it back.

The warning are not for believers. They are for non believers who are in the church who have not yet taken that step,. Paul and John both speak about how we are not the ones who fall to perdition, we are not the ones who walk away, we are not the ones who need to be taught,

You never assume each person in your body are true believers, you must always give a warning to all, even though the few are the ones who need to hear it, because you may not know who they are.
Well, I hope you fare well in attempting to convince him and others of the Gospel.

Imagine, he has finally embraced election, but now he is failing to see the completion of the golden chain of redemption that will be fulfilled unto glorification unto all the elect. Romans 8:28ff.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
John 3:16, partially paraphrased:

"That all who BELIEVE in Me shall be saved".

Notice that verse does NOT say, those who KEEP BELIEVING in me shall be saved.


Just saying..

The important part is what you left out.,

The worker will say since the word believe is "present tense: it means it is an ongoing thing, if at any time, belief stops. They the shall be saved is null and voic.,

the part they miss out, is that once we believe, we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

if I have eternal life. Then that life can never be lost, As jesus said in john 6. I will never die, I will live forever (that is eternal life) and thus I will be raised on the last day (not delivered for judgment)


if that part was left out, they may have an argument, but thge term, has eternal life destroys it, Because if I have eternal life, and lose it, then it was never eternal life.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Well, I hope you fare well in attempting to convince him and others of the Gospel.

Imagine, he has finally embraced election, but now he is failing to see the completion of the golden chain of redemption that will be fulfilled unto glorification unto all the elect. Romans 8:28ff.

I want to make sure I understand what he is saying before I pass judgment bro. It sounds like he has heard some of the opposition, and calling into question some things, I want to try to help him, and see what is going on, instead of judge him and cause him to get defensive and not hear a word I say.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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I want to make sure I understand what he is saying before I pass judgment bro. It sounds like he has heard some of the opposition, and calling into question some things, I want to try to help him, and see what is going on, instead of judge him and cause him to get defensive and not hear a word I say.
It appears he is riding the fence, which is OK with me if he is sincerely attempting to understand. One post it appears it is rejected, the next it appears he changes his position. So, however one attempts to refute, he has a comeback on either side.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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It is crazy, I stand before God, all my sin is forgiven, He looks at my works, and says depart from me, for I knew you at one time, but you lost faith in me, so I left you go, You should have kept trusting me. But you did not, so depart!

"But God you promised you would never let go"

God reply, I did, But you pulled yourself away from me, I tried to hold on tight, but you overpowered me. I could not hold on anymore.



Where can I find this in my Bible?

we can overpower GOD because we desire to love and obey... not so.

GOD is Faithful what members here are relaying is that we are to be Faithful and love and Trust by being a doer of the Royal law.
 
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PHart

Guest
What part of Saving Faith is not of yourself, it is a GIFT OF GOD, do you not understand?
I'm on record as saying faith is entirely a gracious gift from God. What you're not getting is faith is the free gift that is given to us so we can then believe/trust in the gospel. He gives us the faith to then believe. He does not do our believing for us. He gives us the necessary faith (the supernatural ability to know the gospel is true) upon which we then do our believing and trusting.

Simply knowing the gospel is true won't save a flea. Even Christ rejecters knew when God called them that the gospel was true. The Holy Spirit showed them that. But they have chosen to reject faith (the power to do the believing/trusting God requires), and are not saved. It's the believing part that does the justifying, not simply knowing the gospel is true through the power of faith.



IT IS NOT WITH WHAT LIES BETWEEN YOUR EARS THAT YOU GENUINELY BELIEVE; IT IS WITH WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS BIRTHED IN YOUR HEART.
Okay, good. You see the difference between 'faith' and 'believing' that I just explained. Actually, you probably don't, but if you look at your own quote above you can see that even you are unconsciously making the distinction between what God places in the heart (faith--the supernatural knowledge that the gospel is true) and the believing that you do in response to the revelation that God gives as a free gift.

Just having the Holy Spirit tell you the gospel is true (faith) isn't enough. That's hearing only. It can't save anybody. It's believing/trusting in what you hear that justifies/saves. There are lots of people who hear the testimony of the Holy Spirit who shows them the gospel is true but then who never respond in trust to that which the Holy Spirit proved to them is true. But they go on in life thinking they are saved nonetheless. They agree that the gospel is true, but they never place their trust in it and are saved. But they are quite sure that the knowing alone is enough to justify/save them. And so back to their old lives they go, unchanged, untransformed by the gospel with only the outer dressing of the Christian life to show for what God revealed to them by faith. No change of character, no deliverance from sin, no progress towards Christ-likeness. Just the same ol' person they were before with some church attendance and a profession of faith thrown in to suave the conscience.
 
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PHart

Guest
that is something I have thought about often- no fear of God. saying things like " I don't sin ", "I am a righteous person" , the Cross was not enough ".

I fear God and his righteous judgement, and would never make these claims. when Jesus sad " by your words you will be acquitted , and by your words you will be condemned " , I take that very seriously.
I don't know all the details of what he believes but it appears you're doing to him what the Pharisees did to Jesus. He spoke in ways that appeared to them were blasphemous but in fact were not at all when fully explained and examined. But they weren't interested in seeking out what he was actually saying. Their superficial, erroneous understanding of what he was saying provided the excuse they needed to fulfill their real agenda--which was to condemn and destroy him, and that's as far with the matter that they wanted and intended to go with it. They were not interested in actually delving into the truth he was speaking in order to learn. They wanted him dead. That very spirit--the spirit of the Pharisee--exists in this forum. The Spirit of Jesus, on the other hand, acts like Jesus.
 
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PHart

Guest
You should see how Nasty Areminians can get. I have been called names by both sides of that stupid argument.
What I've seen is anti-Calvinists get grievously provoked by the angry bullying of Calvinists. Generally speaking, Calvinist go on the offensive, while anit-Calvinists get put on the defense, and many simply do not respond very well to the bullying and provocation they try to endure. I see this distinction very clearly in these kinds of arguments. Very clearly.

It's the spirit of the Pharisee--angrily and without the Spirit murderously defending the popularly accepted beliefs of the day. They look good on the outside (generally speaking) and feel they are above reproach because of that, but inside they are full of murder, and hatred, and treachery, not the love of God.
 
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PHart

Guest
John 3:16, partially paraphrased:

"That all who BELIEVE in Me shall be saved".

Notice that verse does NOT say, those who KEEP BELIEVING in me shall be saved.


Just saying..
The person who continues to believe is the one who is always presently believing. Certainly you would agree with that.

You will see that the promises of Jesus are conditioned on present believing, not past believing that has, or can, stop. The condition for having eternal life, right now, is that you believe right now. And as long as you are doing that believing you have the sure and unshakable promise of salvation.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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I want to make sure I understand what he is saying before I pass judgment bro. It sounds like he has heard some of the opposition, and calling into question some things, I want to try to help him, and see what is going on, instead of judge him and cause him to get defensive and not hear a word I say.
He is reading the Bible it is better for you to leave him be.. you have no judgement to pass on Him.. the young man will fare well continuing to believe the Word of GOD over man.
 
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PHart

Guest
Jesus did the work, He did the teaching, He did the convincing. But I chose to trust in him.
Correct. You CHOSE to trust in him.



He proved faithfull, and he always is faithful, so once I have faith in him, I will never lose it...
How do you know that the choice you made to trust in what God convinced you is true can never ever be reversed? It was a choice then, how is it not now? After you choose to believe, does God now make the choice of believing/trusting in the gospel for you?



...HE NEVER GIVES ME A REASON TOO, unlike human parents, human friends and human spouses who are not very trustworthy who gives us all kinds of reasons, LOSE FAITH IN HIM.
I'm 31 years old in the Lord now. Not 31 years of passive, "yeah, I'm saved" salvation. But an active, interested, learning, and growing, and serving, and focused 31 years of salvation. And I will tell you right now that our relationship with Christ is like a marriage. You start out with stars in your eyes and think that nothing can come between you and your devotion and love for your spouse. It's the same with God. You're kidding yourself if you think your relationship with God will always be like it was on the first day, or in the first six months. You will most likely find that love for God wanes and must be nurtured and maintained like love in a human marriage does. That is why the Bible exhorts us not to forsake our first love. Don't be fooled into thinking the love you have for God now is too good to not always be that way. Everybody, sooner or later, has to face their Garden of Gethsamene, or their Job trial that will try their faith in the gospel. If your soil is good, you'll make it through. But don't think it has an automatic outcome because you're just so crazy in love with God now.




Your trying to humanize God, saying he is not triustworthy (by your very words claiming one can lose faith)
You'd have a point if God said he promised to do our believing for us. But as it is, he did not promise that. He will provide the faith and encouragement so we can trust and believe, but he does not do our believing for us.




...and as we see, your also just trying to fight calvanism. Until you make this a "word of God" issue, and not a "Fight Calanistic viewpoint" issue at all costs, I fear you will never understand.
Actually, I resist labels. But sometimes it's the only way to talk to another person so they understand what you're saying. I'm good with simply addressing each individual issue without labels. I use 'OSAS' because I do not want to type out 'Once Saved Always Saved' all the time. That is not a label.
 
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PHart

Guest
He is reading the Bible it is better for you to leave him be.. you have no judgement to pass on Him.. the young man will fare well continuing to believe the Word of GOD over man.
I did not get the impression that he was struggling. And the humility he has is all he needs to make it even if he is. His teachable and open and searching spirit is the greatest tool he has. God can and will set a person like that on solid ground.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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I did not get the impression that he was struggling. And the humility he has is all he needs to make it even if he is. His teachable and open and searching spirit is the greatest tool he has. God can and will set a person like that on solid ground.
The power of GOD indeed. We are to believe and He does the rest.