Not By Works

[PeterJens]

sorry, you get no treats for your tricks. just correction. will you receive it??

This is odd language.

It is talking as if someone is a pet trying to please their master.
Why use this kind of language?

On the idea of reading the bible a lot of times does not mean you have gained
the right understanding. There are theologians who profoundly have no faith
at all, though they know the words very well.

It is what you let enter you heart and how the word dwells there that makes the
difference. The more you share the more it is only your perspective that you
can perceive. Yes a free pass gospel is a simple proposition, but scripture does
not support it. Why? Because a free pass concept could be written on one
piece of paper. So why is the whole bible here?

Because a fallen redeemed people we need to learn how to walk, and learn and
grow into maturity where love is our light. And that is difficult and there are many
blind allies one can get trapped in. Pilgrims progress begins to get a handle on this
walk, so I wish you well, but wonder at your inflexibility of mind and heart.
Does it not worry you, when there are so many other perspectives?

 

[BillG]

Well said gb9, the anti-grace, pro works people, have little to say about our Saviour, and plenty to say about their wonderful achievements,

Hmm I wonder who such people could be?
Not Just who such poeople would be , but the reasons for boasting

 

[gb9]

But the Old Covenant, in the same Bible you claimed to have read cover to cover 17 times, is the Levitical Priesthood Sacrificial ceremonial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins. This is specifically mentioned and discussed in Hebrews 7-10.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

If you have read the Bible 17 times cover to cover, how is it you don't know about how sin's were cleansed prior to the "Seed" coming?

Hebrews 10. these sacrifices you spoke of were reminders of sins, and they did not truly cleanse. Christ made one sacrifice for sin.

see, you quoted a part of a letter. I keep reading.

another trick, another fail.

 

[gb9]

This is odd language.

It is talking as if someone is a pet trying to please their master.
Why use this kind of language?

On the idea of reading the bible a lot of times does not mean you have gained
the right understanding. There are theologians who profoundly have no faith
at all, though they know the words very well.

It is what you let enter you heart and how the word dwells there that makes the
difference. The more you share the more it is only your perspective that you
can perceive. Yes a free pass gospel is a simple proposition, but scripture does
not support it. Why? Because a free pass concept could be written on one
piece of paper. So why is the whole bible here?

Because a fallen redeemed people we need to learn how to walk, and learn and
grow into maturity where love is our light. And that is difficult and there are many
blind allies one can get trapped in. Pilgrims progress begins to get a handle on this
walk, so I wish you well, but wonder at your inflexibility of mind and heart.
Does it not worry you, when there are so many other perspectives?

I used that language to convey what individuals like him and you do. you try to trick people into believing that we have to work for salvation, and that you are sinless. these things are not true. I am pointing that out.

posting verses out of context, saying that words do not mean what they clearly mean,etc....... is not honest behavior. it is deceitful. it is a trick. it is fake.

and, just to be clear, you, and no one, is sinless. by the Biblical definition that is.

 

[VCO]

To believe in the Jesus of the Bible means to believe His Words and teachings as well.

Your claimed "Belief" does not make void the scriptures I posted, nor the implications of their meaning. Your response didn't address the point of my post.

I would ask you a question and hope for an honest answer.

What were the "Work's of the Law" contained in the Law of Moses that pertained to the remission of sins?

><>t<><

So then why do you misinterpret so many verses?


Deuteronomy 15:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "This is the manner of remission: every creditor shall release what he has loaned to his neighbor; he shall not exact it of his neighbor and his brother, because the LORD'S remission has been proclaimed.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "From a foreigner you may exact it, but your hand shall release whatever of yours is with your brother.

Deuteronomy 15:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "Beware that there is no base thought in your heart, saying, 'The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,' and your eye is hostile toward your poor brother, and you give him nothing; then he may cry to the LORD against you, and it will be a sin in you.

Remission means an unearned release or unearned forgiveness of the sin debt. AND YES THAT IS TAUGHT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TOO.

Exodus 34:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then he said, “My Lord, if I have indeed found favor in Your sight, my Lord, please go with us. Even though this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wrongdoing and sin, and accept us as Your own possession.”

Isaiah 6:5-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Then I said: Woe is me for I am ruined because I am a man of unclean lips and live among a people of unclean lips, ⌊and⌋ because my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of Hosts.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Then one of the seraphim flew to me, and in his hand was a glowing coal that he had taken from the altar with tongs.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He touched my mouth ⌊with it⌋ and said: Now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed and your sin is atoned for.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying: Who should I send? Who will go for Us? I said: Here I am. Send me.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (ASV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


OH MY, you and your works had NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR Remission, your fogiveness, NOR your eternal SALVATION.


Romans 5:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.


You can stop patting yourself on your back now, YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

 

[garee]

APPARENTLY, you do not even know that the word perfect has two meanings. The meaning that applies to verse you are talking about, MEANS: "spiritually mature".

Faith is a work. By his work he made his plan of faith complete.

 

[VCO]

To believe in the Jesus of the Bible means to believe His Words and teachings as well.

Your claimed "Belief" does not make void the scriptures I posted, nor the implications of their meaning. Your response didn't address the point of my post.

I would ask you a question and hope for an honest answer.

What were the "Work's of the Law" contained in the Law of Moses that pertained to the remission of sins?

><>t<><

So then why do you misinterpret so many verses?


Deuteronomy 15:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "This is the manner of remission: every creditor shall release what he has loaned to his neighbor; he shall not exact it of his neighbor and his brother, because the LORD'S remission has been proclaimed.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "From a foreigner you may exact it, but your hand shall release whatever of yours is with your brother.

Deuteronomy 15:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "Beware that there is no base thought in your heart, saying, 'The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,' and your eye is hostile toward your poor brother, and you give him nothing; then he may cry to the LORD against you, and it will be a sin in you.

Remission means an unearned release or unearned forgiveness of the sin debt. AND YES THAT IS TAUGHT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TOO.

Exodus 34:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then he said, “My Lord, if I have indeed found favor in Your sight, my Lord, please go with us. Even though this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wrongdoing and sin, and accept us as Your own possession.”

Isaiah 6:5-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Then I said: Woe is me for I am ruined because I am a man of unclean lips and live among a people of unclean lips, ⌊and⌋ because my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of Hosts.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Then one of the seraphim flew to me, and in his hand was a glowing coal that he had taken from the altar with tongs.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He touched my mouth ⌊with it⌋ and said: Now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed and your sin is atoned for.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying: Who should I send? Who will go for Us? I said: Here I am. Send me.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (ASV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


OH MY, you and your works had NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR Remission, your fogiveness, NOR your eternal SALVATION.


Romans 5:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.


You can stop patting yourself on your back now, YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

 

[VCO]

Faith is a work. By his work he made his plan of faith complete.

WRONG TRUE FAITH IS PART OF THE GIFT OF GRACE, IN YOUR HEART and not of your human intellect. (Eph 2:8-9 and Rom. 5:5) COUNTERFEIT FAITH is a work only of the intellectual capacity of the human brain. Even the Demons at GADERA had that kind of intellectual Faith.

 

[VCO]

Hmm I wonder who such people could be?
Not Just who such poeople would be , but the reasons for boasting

Shall we throw a rock in the hen house, and see which ones squawk?

 

[TruthTalk]

I like this message

Are these doctrines to be found in the gospels? I ask because it would be nice to see someone else other than Paul say it. I dont ask to start a fight or dispute monergism, but just to put precept upon precept line upon line.

Hi Rokurac, of course you already know, the debate is, do you believe a theology of; Grace plus nothing, "Monergism", or Grace plus works, "Synergism", Yes the doctrine of Grace plus nothing is found throughout the Gospels, here is one just to get you started, but I'm sure you know this verse already, line upon line.

Also it has been repeated here again and again, that Able's offering to God, was, his faith and a blood sacrifice; Cain's offering to God, was his faith pus his good works. Faith is a gift of God, you cannot posses or achieve faith on your own.

The Synergistic folks here are always putting their good works ahead of Christ and rarely mention Jesus sacrifice, something to think about. Behind all of the conversations about Grace vs Law, the works people will finally admit that a believer can "lose their eternal salvation," "No security of the believer", Faith to Faith, "Salvation is of the Lord." Jonah2:9

This discussion, Grace vs Law has been going on for 2000yrs plus, it will not end until Jesus returns for His Bride the Church.

To some who were confident of their own righteousness

Luke18:9-14 - The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9) To some who were confident of their own righteousness and
looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:
10) “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11) The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12) I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13) “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14) “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[PJW]

I used that language to convey what individuals like him and you do. you try to trick people into believing that we have to work for salvation, and that you are sinless. these things are not true. I am pointing that out.

posting verses out of context, saying that words do not mean what they clearly mean,etc....... is not honest behavior. it is deceitful. it is a trick. it is fake.

and, just to be clear, you, and no one, is sinless. by the Biblical definition that is.

Peter wrote..."[FONT=&quot]Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
Don't you think anybody has "suffered in the flesh"?
It saddens me to see someone who doesn't believe they can be obedient to God all the time.[/FONT]

 

[Rokurac]

Hi Rokurac, of course you already know, the debate is, do you believe a theology of; Grace plus nothing, "Monergism", or Grace plus works, "Synergism", Yes the doctrine of Grace plus nothing is found throughout the Gospels, here is one just to get you started, but I'm sure you know this verse already, line upon line.

Also it has been repeated here again and again, that Able's offering to God, was, his faith and a blood sacrifice; Cain's offering to God, was his faith pus his good works. Faith is a gift of God, you cannot posses or achieve faith on your own.

The Synergistic folks here are always putting their good works ahead of Christ and rarely mention Jesus sacrifice, something to think about. Behind all of the conversations about Grace vs Law, the works people will finally admit that a believer can "lose their eternal salvation," "No security of the believer", Faith to Faith, "Salvation is of the Lord." Jonah2:9

This discussion, Grace vs Law has been going on for 2000yrs plus, it will not end until Jesus returns for His Bride the Church.

To some who were confident of their own righteousness

Luke18:9-14 - The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9) To some who were confident of their own righteousness and
looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:
10) “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11) The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12) I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13) “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14) “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Thanks you brother.
I do believe as you do that its God who does the saving. Always have. Man is dead in trespasses and sins! UNTIL God regenerates!

 

[TruthTalk]

Hmm I wonder who such people could be?
Not Just who such poeople would be , but the reasons for boasting

Pride is their reason for boasting, the original sin, "I will be like The Most High God" Some people here call it "Cainology", bringing God your good works = "pride" The Cross of Jesus was not enough to save and keep them saved they have add their works to "keep being saved" aka, believing.

"I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." Isaiah14:14

 

[Studyman]

=BillG;3314618]Evening.

To be honest I can’t get a handle on what your beef is about concerning the mainstream teaching of the church.
Maybe for clarification rather than ask the questions can you explain what exactly your views are.
If you have and I have missed would you please repost it for me.

John 9:41


41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees here and not the man that was healed and the people who would have seen it.

The healed man which leads into the verse you quoted on its own


John 9:35-41
True Vision and True Blindness
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”
36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.

9:40-41: Are you saying we’re blind? Jesus answered that those who claim to hold all religious truth will discover that they are blind, while those who recognize their spiritual poverty will find true sight. In the story, the blind man and his family frequently confessed that they did not know, while the Pharisees repeatedly stated their confidence and remained guilty because of their religious pride. If they had confessed their ignorance and admitted their spiritual blindness, they would be guiltless. Instead, their conscious and willful rejection of Jesus established their guilt. (NLT study notes)

And Jesus said, “For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind.”
Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said unto him, “Are we also blind?”
Jesus said unto them, “If ye were blind, ye would have no sin: but now ye say, ‘We see’: your sin remaineth” (John 9:39-41).

​

All five senses are important, yet we attach great significance to sight. We live in a world full of images, signs, books, and all sorts of material which need to be seen to be understood and/or appreciated. Sure, it is possible to survive without vision, but it is a hard road indeed.
Humans naturally connect vision and sight to “insight” or understanding. How many times, upon figuring out some problem, challenge, or difficulty, have we exclaimed, “I see it now!”? How many times, after having explained something to someone, have we asked them whether they can “see” it? We don’t exclaim that we’ve heard it, or tasted it, touched it, or smelled it; we “see” it.
This tendency to explain understanding in terms of vision is not new to us; we see it presented in the Scriptures as well. Jesus fully exploits this tendency in an exquisite double entendre at the conclusion of John 9.

John 9:39-41 is based on the interactions among Jesus, a physically blind man, and the Pharisees throughout John 9:1-38. Jesus comes upon this man born physically blind and heals him of his blindness (John 9:1-7). This event is made known to the Pharisees, and they bring in the formerly blind man for questioning (John 9:8-15). The Pharisees insist that such a thing could not be of God because it was done upon the Sabbath; others find it hard to deny the obvious evidence before them (John 9:16). The Pharisees question this man’s parents and then the man again: they demand that he give God the glory, since they “knew” that the Man who did this was a “sinner” (John 9:17-27). The Pharisees are “disciples of Moses,” and they know that God spoke to Moses, but they do not know where “this Man,” that is Jesus, is from (John 9:28-29).

But these man made notes from the Mainstream Church omits the fact that Jesus had already exposed that the Pharisees were not "Disciples of Moses". Jesus didn't follow any Levitical Priesthood Ceremonies or sacrifices to heal this guy as prescribed by the Law of Moses. Jesus had already rebuked these religious preachers of His time as liars and servents of satan.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.45
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Also, Jesus had already explained their blindness by reminding us of the Prophet Isaiah..

Matt. 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

No, they rejected God's way and created their own doctrines, High days, and Traditions. So as a result:

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1 Thess. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (Ask yourself; Who's Righteousness, man's or God's?)


Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The formerly blind man stands boldly in faith, logically refuting the Pharisees’ argument: if He was really a sinner, God would not hear Him, and yet until that time there had been no example of anyone’s eyes ever being opened as his eyes were (John 9:30-32). He quite rightly concludes that Jesus could do nothing if He were not of God (John 9:33). The Pharisees were offended at this boldness, declaring that such a man was “altogether born in sins,” and yet dared to try to teach them, and therefore cast him out of the synagogue, in effect banning him from the Jewish community (John 9:34).

So this man told an obvious truth to the religious leaders, not apart from the Word's of the Bible.

"If this man were not of God, he could do nothing." This Biblical truth condemned the Mainstream Religious leaders of that time. And, as was their custom from Caleb, to the persecution of the Prophets, they put him from their presence.

Jesus then found the man born blind and asked him if he believed in the Son of God (John 9:36); after asking who He is and being informed that Jesus is, in fact, the Son of God, he declared his belief in Jesus and prostrated before Him (John 9:36-37).


The conclusion of the matter is found in John 9:39-41. The whole situation has provided evidence for His claim: He came for judgment, allowing the blind to see and blinding those who see. It is not as if the statement is to be taken literally; as far as we can tell, Jesus never caused anyone who could physically see to become physically blind (although Paul does in Acts 13:4-12). Yes, Jesus heals this blind man’s eyes, and he now can physically see. Jesus’ emphasis, however, is not on his physical vision but his spiritual insight: he now believes that Jesus is the Son of God. He now “sees” in a way he did not “see” while blind. He, once a blind man in the midst of those who could see, now finds himself as one who sees in the midst of blind men.

Jesus does not blind those who “see” physically, nor does He even really intend to do so spiritually.

I agree with this. The understanding of God's Word is a Spiritual understanding. Jesus called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. Peter says this "Spirit;

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost,(Spirit of Truth) whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The problem is not with Him; the problem is in those who claim to “see,” evidently the Pharisees from John 9:41. Jesus’ statement there is stark: if they admitted their blindness, they would be without sin, but since they say they see, their sin remains. This again has less to do with physical sight and more to do with internal insight: the Pharisees are convinced they know Moses, they know what Moses taught, they know what Sabbath observance looks like, and they certainly know what Sabbath violations look like.

But they didn't know Moses, or his God. They didn't know His Sabbath or the violations of His Sabbath. They, as Jesus said over and over, had created their own commandments, their own traditions, their own doctrines. This is important BG.

They are blinded by their complete conviction of their vision! They find themselves declaring that the work of God really did not come from God because it did not happen in the way they would have expected it to according to their understanding of the Law. (Spiritualmanna.info)

And the reason they were blind is because they refused to acknowledge God as Supreme. They didn't have Faith in Him or His creation, so they made their own. For this reason they were blinded as it is written.

So here we are today. You ask yourself a simple question that you have the power right now to answer.

Does the Mainstream Christian Church of today "Transgress the Commandments of God", that Jesus walked in, by their own doctrines and traditions?

Have they created their own "Feasts unto the Lord" as Paul warned against. Have they created their own definition of sin and righteousness that is different from God's definition?

Then when you have your answer, you will have to make the same choice all men have to make. Do you follow the instruction of men claiming to be "Ministers of Righteousness", or do you trust God/Jesus enough to listen to them and follow their instruction?

This is the difference between the two Path Jesus spoke to in Matt. 7.

In closing regarding the two Paths, I will ask a question.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Why would "MANY" people want to go into a path that leads to destruction? Of course they wouldn't. Why were they on this path? Because they were deceived.

The leaders of this Path, would they declare "Come follow us on the path to destruction? No my friend. They will declare "Come follow us on the path to eternal life."

I welcome your questions long post and all. I will always use God's word to answer as best I can.

 

[Studyman]

Hebrews 10. these sacrifices you spoke of were reminders of sins, and they did not truly cleanse. Christ made one sacrifice for sin.

see, you quoted a part of a letter. I keep reading.

another trick, another fail.

Well we are getting closer, at least you now admit the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins were there before Christ.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

 

[BillG]

But these man made notes from the Mainstream Church omits the fact that Jesus had already exposed that the Pharisees were not "Disciples of Moses". Jesus didn't follow any Levitical Priesthood Ceremonies or sacrifices to heal this guy as prescribed by the Law of Moses. Jesus had already rebuked these religious preachers of His time as liars and servents of satan.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.45
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Also, Jesus had already explained their blindness by reminding us of the Prophet Isaiah..

Matt. 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

No, they rejected God's way and created their own doctrines, High days, and Traditions. So as a result:

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1 Thess. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (Ask yourself; Who's Righteousness, man's or God's?)


Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.





So this man told an obvious truth to the religious leaders, not apart from the Word's of the Bible.

"If this man were not of God, he could do nothing." This Biblical truth condemned the Mainstream Religious leaders of that time. And, as was their custom from Caleb, to the persecution of the Prophets, they put him from their presence.




I agree with this. The understanding of God's Word is a Spiritual understanding. Jesus called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. Peter says this "Spirit;

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost,(Spirit of Truth) whom God hath given to them that obey him.






But they didn't know Moses, or his God. They didn't know His Sabbath or the violations of His Sabbath. They, as Jesus said over and over, had created their own commandments, their own traditions, their own doctrines. This is important BG.




And the reason they were blind is because they refused to acknowledge God as Supreme. They didn't have Faith in Him or His creation, so they made their own. For this reason they were blinded as it is written.

So here we are today. You ask yourself a simple question that you have the power right now to answer.

Does the Mainstream Christian Church of today "Transgress the Commandments of God", that Jesus walked in, by their own doctrines and traditions?

Have they created their own "Feasts unto the Lord" as Paul warned against. Have they created their own definition of sin and righteousness that is different from God's definition?

Then when you have your answer, you will have to make the same choice all men have to make. Do you follow the instruction of men claiming to be "Ministers of Righteousness", or do you trust God/Jesus enough to listen to them and follow their instruction?

This is the difference between the two Path Jesus spoke to in Matt. 7.

In closing regarding the two Paths, I will ask a question.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Why would "MANY" people want to go into a path that leads to destruction? Of course they wouldn't. Why were they on this path? Because they were deceived.

The leaders of this Path, would they declare "Come follow us on the path to destruction? No my friend. They will declare "Come follow us on the path to eternal life."

I welcome your questions long post and all. I will always use God's word to answer as best I can.

Thank you for responsding after reading my long post and giving your thoughts.
I appreciate it.
To be honest I anticipated what your response would be but to be truly honest I can’t fully see your point.
If memory serves me and I can’t post your quote (in an iPad which limits what I can do) but you Your response to BG9 concerning what Paul said you seemed to to rebuke. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yet above you quote Paul.

Are you saying that the mainstream chruch is misquoting Paul to make false doctrine?

Do you adhere to the thoughts of N.T Wright and the new perspective of Paul?

Thanks for engaging

 

[VCO]

Here is a conversation of two OSAS folks who are proud self-proclaimed SINNERS.

It’s quite disturbing that these folks are not ashamed to call themselves BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS Who already POSSESS ETERNAL SALVATION that cannot be lost because of their genuine FAITH that ALONE SAVES while at the same time are very proud to promote sin by saying that believers are sinners but Once Saved are Always saved and that their sins in the past, present & future were already forgiven as if sinning for being a SINNER as they claim, have no bearing in their salvation (licensed to sin) contrary to what the scripture speaks of regarding sin and being born again.

. . .
QUOTE:

NONE are so blind. Point it is NOT possible for any MORTAL MAN NOT TO BE GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD'S LAW. The worst mass murderer on DEATH ROW is not is NOT a worse sinner than us. WE ARE AS BAD OF A SINNER AS HE IS.

Exactly..........a sinner is a sinner is a sinner........a white lie or murder....the blood of Christ covers both

So you are another one who has swallowed the LIES that are peddled by the "Works Righteousness and I Never Sin" FALSE GOSPEL preachers.

You do not even come close to explaining what we OSAS believers actually teach and BELIEVE. Then to top it off you add your own lies to the lies you were taught. If you are going to quote us, at least have the curtousey to quote us accurately, without adding you lies to what we believe.

NOT ONE OSAS would ever say the blood of Christ covers anything. THAT IS TRAMPLING on the BLOOD OF CHRIST, lowering it to the level of the blood of bulls and sheep. THOSE sacrifices only covered sin. CHRISTS BLOOD CLEANSES US as white as snow from ALL SIN. DOES THAT MAKE US SINLESS in this flesh and blood body? NO, we have sin nature inherited from Adam and that will not be done away with until the RESURRECTION.

Hebrews 10:29 (NIV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10:3-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But in the sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said: You did not want sacrifice and offering, but You prepared a body for Me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] You did not delight in whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then I said, “See— it is written about Me in the volume of the scroll— I have come to do Your will, God!”
[SUP]8 [/SUP] After He says above, You did not want or delight in sacrifices and offerings, whole burnt offerings and sin offerings (which are offered according to the law),
[SUP]9 [/SUP] He then says, See, I have come to do Your will. He takes away the first to establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] By this will ⌊of God⌋, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.


BUT sin still dwells in this mortal body, even though our spirits are seen as sanctified.


1 Corinthians 15:22 (ESV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For as in Adam all die {because of the inherited sin nature, you body is perishing and will die}, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (ESV)
[SUP]50 [/SUP] I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
{then and only then will we have a body with NO SIN IN IT.}
[SUP]54 [/SUP] When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
[SUP]55 [/SUP] “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
[SUP]56 [/SUP] The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP] But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


That is why Paul struggled with his body of sin:


Romans 7:15-25 (CSBBible)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one that does it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] So I discover this law: When I want to do what is good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For in my inner self I delight in God's law,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am serving the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.

Romans 7:23 (ESV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.


When you see a begger on the streets, Do you give him enough to feed himself for awhile, like you would feed yourself, or do you just throw a few coins in his hat and walk on? OR, do turn away and go a different way?

1 John 3:17 (NRSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] How does God's love abide in anyone who has the world's goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses help?

James 4:17 (NIV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

1 Peter 2:13-15 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--

James 2:10 (CSBBible)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point, is guilty of breaking it all.



Ordinances of Man YOU MOST LIKELY HAVE VIOLATED at some time.
The question is how many recently?

STOP SIGNS - mean a full stop.

SPEED SIGNS - mean literally what it says, NOT five mph over, or even 1 mph over.

NO PARKING - no, a quick run into a store for one item is not an excuse.

NO LITERING - yes, that cigarette but tossed out the window is litering.

NO TRESPASSING - no taking your dog potty does not permit you to violate that law.

QUIET ZONE - yes that means turn your booming radio way down.

NO U-TURN - no, "you forgot your wallet", does not give you permission to violate it.

NO JAYWALKING - yes that means you walk to the corner and use the crosswalk.

PICK UP BEHIND YOUR DOG - Yes that means you carry a baggie and paper towel, disposing of it properly.


Break any Ordinance, even accidently, and YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD's LAWS, just like the Mass Murderer on Death Row. GOD's WORD SAYS SO.

Sounds to me like your are SERIOUSLY GOING TO NEED A SAVIOR.

SO TELL ME NOW, HOW MANY OF THOSE HAVE YOU VIOLATED RECENTLY?

Let me know when these verses really HIT HOME!


Romans 7:23-24 (CSBBible)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

 

[preacher4truth]

Here is a conversation of two OSAS folks who are proud self-proclaimed SINNERS.

It’s quite disturbing that these folks are not ashamed to call themselves BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS Who already POSSESS ETERNAL SALVATION that cannot be lost because of their genuine FAITH that ALONE SAVES while at the same time are very proud to promote sin by saying that believers are sinners but Once Saved are Always saved and that their sins in the past, present & future were already forgiven as if sinning for being a SINNER as they claim, have no bearing in their salvation (licensed to sin) contrary to what the scripture speaks of regarding sin and being born again.

;John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.

Just love all your false accusations and verses out of context.

HOW CAN A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER STILL CALL HIMSELF A SINNER?

1 Timothy 1:15, maybe? 1 John 1:9, perhaps? Romans 7:25 maybe?

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for responsding after reading my long post and giving your thoughts.
I appreciate it.
To be honest I anticipated what your response would be but to be truly honest I can’t fully see your point.
If memory serves me and I can’t post your quote (in an iPad which limits what I can do) but you Your response to BG9 concerning what Paul said you seemed to to rebuke. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yet above you quote Paul.

Are you saying that the mainstream chruch is misquoting Paul to make false doctrine?

Do you adhere to the thoughts of N.T Wright and the new perspective of Paul?

Thanks for engaging

I understand the influence of Mainstream Teaching. Everything you know has been sifted through the Doctrines of Mainstream teaching, just like everything the Jews knew was filtered through the "Traditions and Doctrines of the Mainstream Church of Christ's time. It was difficult for them to accept, and it will difficult for you to accept. Jesus said there is a cost. Maybe you can now start to see what that cost is.

So you would atomically believe that Paul taught a different Gospel than Moses, because in order for the "Traditions and Doctrines" of the Mainstream Church of today to stand, they need the elimination of Moses. Without the teaching God gave Moses it is easier to justify Mainstream Christianity's "Transgression of God's Commandments by their own man made doctrines."

I am not really saying anything, so much as simply believing EVERY WORD that proceeds from the Word of God and considering that God's Word supersedes man made doctrine and traditions.

You go ahead and ask yourself the questions I posted. You know the answer. Then you will have to decide if the answer matters. God is fully capable of directing you to His Truth. But he has chosen to only reveal Himself to those who "Turn to Him" or Obey Him. Turning to a church that "Transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions" means nothing. You might feel better, you might receive the praise of man, but you will jest be another of the "Many" on the Broad Path to destruction.

This Biblical reality infuriates those who "Teach for doctrines the commandments of men" and it has always been that way.

Paul teaches to humble ourselves to God and His Righteousness. Jesus said to "Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God, and His Righteousness", not the righteousness of some religious franchise.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's how you treat everyone who oppose you but I still believe that not all who are reading along are heart-hardenened or as blind as you. If your Faith Alone in Christ Saves you, why do you reject His commands?

Another false statement....explain how being deceitful helps your "sinless perfectionist" working for dogma?