Not By Works

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PJW

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Oct 6, 2017
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This interpretation sounds great, and is certainly the one you want to swear by if you consider yourself to be perfect ((Paul didn't, btw)) - that is, it sounds great until you notice that the whole chapter is in present tense apart from the cherry you picked contextlessly out of verse 5.
Then this interpretation falls apart completely.

If you move on to 8:1, which begins 'therefore..' and realise that Paul reaches a conclusion based on everything he has said just prior to this, in particular being summarised in the last verse or two of chapter 7, which immediately precedes 8:1, you find a radically different understanding which blows works-based salvation apart and gives the believer an amazing reason to praise God in such a way that it is impossible to hold any amount of pride or self righteousness while doing so, and provides a blueprint of a profound basis for the thankfulness we are commanded to give in all things.
Ever heard of the "present-historical" or "present-narrative tense?
You should google it.
A large portion of Rom 7 is in the present narrative.
It seems you have given up on the hope of serving God perfectly.
I hope I'm wrong.
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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And I forgot this point I wanted to make.

To establish the law, is to lift up or out of our new nature, by this new nature, we will establish the law as the natural way of living for the Spiritual man or woman. Not by obedience to these laws, for we are no longer under law, but through the empowerment of grace.

We have a new husband...the old one died, and we are one with the groom.
Yes we used to be married to sin, we are no longer married to sin,;

Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

*What is sin, that we may not continue in it?

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”


Also can you show me what in this post is not correct with Scripture? Because that was a strong accusation that im not walking in the Spirit.

What is the proper way to preach/teach grace/unmerited mercy?

Here is my view;


If preaching grace is done in a way that say there is no need to obey, it is licentiousness.

Jude 1:4, “For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior YHWH into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah.”

Jeremiah 7:9-11, “Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, vow falsely, burn incense to Baal, follow hinder gods you know nothing of, And then come and stand before Me in this House upon which My Name is called, and say; We are saved! Saved to do all these abominations? Has this House, which is called with My Name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen this! says YHWH.

Romans 2:4, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and tolerance, and patience, not knowing that the kindness of YHWH leads you to repentance?”

If preaching grace is done in a way that says we should now be obedient Yah, it is right.

Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law* through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law*!"

Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

*What is sin, that we may not continue in it?

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Romans 2:4, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and tolerance, and patience, not knowing that the kindness of YHWH leads you to repentance?”
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
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Very true we need to show those that Pretzel Jesus’s Words the light ,and continue to pray for these folks .
Blessings
Bill
Your efforts to drag me back into accepting sin will fail.
I will serve only the Lord.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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In this case a single verse or a passage can never be posted without the entire chapter. Some verses are more standalone than others but of course we need the whole word, I can post entire chapters and boks each post, people already make comments about how I post "reams of Scripture" anduse that to somehow disqualify, so I guess a little Scripture is too little and a lot of Scripture is too much...

I personally think those verses I posted are very valid concerning that prticular topic



We live in the age of;

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12, "For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan, who works with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of sin in those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason, YHWH will send them strong delusion, that they would believe the deception, In order that all those may be judged as not having believed the truth, but as having delighted in sin."

mystery; —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon) From a derivative of μύω [[muo]] (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):—mystery.

iniquity” is word # G458 - anomia Strong's Concordance, lawlessness, Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin

People today seek something called "soothsayers" I am not calling myself a prophet by any means but can you show me one single Prophet or writer of Scripture that does not stand for obedience to Yah? The majority of my posts are about Yah's call for His people to be oedient, and so many people fight it so much.



What? How would you know anything about how I live my life before Yah? That is a very judgemental statement. Only Yah knows my heart, faith and works. I am only in the Spirit if I post verses that say notinhg about obedience? I find that thought to be against Scripture because the carnal man can not submit to Yah's Law;

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it his not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."

So the gospel is only promises? I thought the gospel was about how to enter the Kingdom?

Matthew 10:7, “And as you go, proclaim, saying, ‘The reign of the heavens has drawn near.”

Mat 4:17, "From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near."

Repent of what? and why, because for the Kingdom is at hand...

2 Thessalonians 1:8, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know Yah, and on those who do not obey the Good News of our Master יהושע Messiah.”

1 Peter 4:17, "Because it is time for judgment to begin from the House of Yah. And if firstly from us, what is the end of those who do not obey the Good News of Yah?"

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



He died for me I want to live for Him, the rest of this post are ALL Yahshua/Jesus words, the day His words are not considered Gospel there is a problem

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John/Yahanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Mat 4:17, “From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."
Im not saying that the scriptures of the 4 gospels are not relevant, I'm saying we have a new way of living before the Lord. By Holy Spirit and the gifts, and grace He extends to the world, not just His own. Jesus died for all men. Past, present, future failings are forgiven, and we are freed from condemnation. Those spirits that constantly lied to the mind and made us hide from Father rather than running to His for the help we need.

Thats the point I'm trying to make about not only your postings, but others too. We put our trust in what God promises to us as to His keeping power. There is our safety, our peace, our help.

I sincerely doubt that we all here are gross sinners, and are just waiting to get to the bars, meet with prostitutes, and rob houses.

Its the little things that trip us up. Like criticisms, how to take things graciously, how to live with those not yet saved without losing our witness by impatience. This kind of thing.

Am pretty sure it's what most of us are calling the sins we commit. Or even timidity in not stepping out in faith when the unction comes on us. We grow in grace. And He graces us to grow.

one thing I do agree with PJW is his mentioning fasting. It is powerful for our living.
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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Im not saying that the scriptures of the 4 gospels are not relevant, I'm saying we have a new way of living before the Lord. By Holy Spirit and the gifts, and grace He extends to the world, not just His own. Jesus died for all men. Past, present, future failings are forgiven, and we are freed from condemnation. Those spirits that constantly lied to the mind and made us hide from Father rather than running to His for the help we need.

Thats the point I'm trying to make about not only your postings, but others too. We put our trust in what God promises to us as to His keeping power. There is our safety, our peace, our help.

I sincerely doubt that we all here are gross sinners, and are just waiting to get to the bars, meet with prostitutes, and rob houses.

Its the little things that trip us up. Like criticisms, how to take things graciously, how to live with those not yet saved without losing our witness by impatience. This kind of thing.

Am pretty sure it's what most of us are calling the sins we commit. Or even timidity in not stepping out in faith when the unction comes on us. We grow in grace. And He graces us to grow.

one thing I do agree with PJW is his mentioning fasting. It is powerful for our living.
OK I know nothing about what PJW believes but it seems you are outting me in a catagory with him and I assume othrs. I am my own indivigual. Also for someone who does not know Yahshua,crtianly, just as the Jerusalem council, you can't tell new converts everything, it's too much information and the focus should be on mrcy, once someone knows Yah, it's time to do His will. We should not be 20 year believers stuck on day 1. Finally I can not say what anyone does, if the ignore their sins, admit them and seek to forske them, or whatever else, even if I know someone presonally, only Yah knows the truth of them. When someone sins the Spirit of Yah shouldcut their heart, if not their conscience has been seared by a hot iron, we cant use Yahshua's blood as a doormat. Certianly all are in places unique to themselves, my point in that post was should the good news be spoken in a way that says you have been healed now do His will, or you have been healed do wahtever and you still good. Yahshua said you are healed, sin no more...


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 4:1-2, "Now the Spirit speaks very plainly, that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared as with a hot iron."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:15, "Who show the work of the Torah written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin)."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Timothy 4:3-4, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts they will heap to themselves teachers, who will tickle their ears, and they will turn away their ears from the truth, and be turned to fables.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 8:11, “And she said, “No one, Master.” And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said to her, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”[/FONT]

His words should cut our heart if we are going astray

Romans 12:1-2, “I call upon you, therefore, brothers, through the compassion of Yah, to present your bodies a living offering – set-apart, well-pleasing to Yah – your reasonable worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you prove what is that good and well-pleasing and perfect desire of Yah.”


1 John 3:4-6, "Everyone doing sin also does lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." Everyone staying in Him does not sin. Everyone sinning has neither seen Him nor known Him.”


1 John 2:4, "The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Go to any church around, they will never speak these versess, only your saved, not what Yah wants tho...

Look what Peter said;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 2:29-40, “29 Men and brothers, let me speak boldly to you of the ancestor Dawiḏ, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30, Being a prophet, then, and knowing that [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]had sworn with an oath to him: of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Messiah to sit on his throne, 31, foreseeing this he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Messiah, that His being was neither left in She’ol, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]has raised up this [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], of which we are all witnesses. 33, Therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and having received from the Father the promise of the Set-apart Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34, For Dawiḏ did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself said, ‘[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said to my Master, “Sit at My right hand, 35, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” 36, Therefore let all the house of Yisra’yl know for certain that [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]has made this [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], whom you impaled, both Master and Messiah. 37, "And having heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Kĕpha and the rest of the emissaries, “Men, brothers, what shall we do? 38, "And Kĕpha said to them, “Repent, and let each one of you be immersed in the Name of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah for the forgiveness of sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Set-apart Spirit. 39, For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are far off, as many as [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ourStrength shall call. 40, And with many other words he earnestly witnessed and urged them, saying, “Be saved from this crooked generation.”[/FONT]
 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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There are ways to work out our salvation Hiz. Fasting is one of them, and if you (any you) are baptized in Holy Spirit, there will be power. Spiritual power. There is power by praying in tongues throughout the day. One can pray silently continuous unless engaged in conversation. Power is for living, and the anointed ministry.

Meditating on the scriptures, another way to work out salvation. Praise and worship. Singing in the Spirit, tongues and interpretation. God has given us all we need for godliness and Living victoriously through the life of Holy Spirit.

Now tell me how living by laws is better Hiz? This is the old way, and never changed anyone. The new and Living way has put the old to death brought by Adam, and under the dominion of the serpent. No longer. A new Genesis has begun with Jesus, and the Acts of the believers are continuously recorded.

The most exciting way of life.
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
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Your efforts to drag me back into accepting sin will fail. Blessings
I will serve only the Lord.
I have no desire or have made any effort passive or aggressive to drag you to sin sir that is a falsehood.
Dare I say it ?Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Blessings
Bill
 
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P

PHart

Guest
tsk tsk, judging another's stance before God.
It's okay to decide who to trust as a brother/sister and who not to.


it's just all your talk of 'continuing to believe' that sounds to me like bootstrap theology? as if we could drum that up in and of ourselves. we cannot, you know.
Correct, you can not drum up trust in God all by yourself. God gives the gracious gift of faith by which we then choose to place our trust in the gospel. Without that supernatural ability of faith to know the gospel really is true no one would place their trust in it and be saved. That's why no one can boast in their trusting.


it's a work God does in His people and He will not fail.
If God does all the trusting for the believer, why is the word 'doubt' even in the believer's vocabulary? If God did our trusting for us our trusting would be perfect and no Christian would ever be tempted by doubts.
 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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Yes we used to be married to sin, we are no longer married to sin,;

Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

*What is sin, that we may not continue in it?

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”


Also can you show me what in this post is not correct with Scripture? Because that was a strong accusation that im not walking in the Spirit.
Sin is our our human nature with death progression in us from birth as we grow. Plus separation from anything Holy. This results in transgression of laws that God gave to reveal sin opposite to His Holiness. But, again....obedience to law is just controlling our fallen nature.

A new nature of the very image of God, Holiness, is what we have. Failures to come to fullness of this is covered as we walk to the goal of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Otherwise men would faint and be weary if one needed to "sweat" by laboring. And this is the curse of the law.

Sweat is not resting in the finished work, nor is it living out of heavenly realms.
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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Sin is our our human nature with death progression in us from birth as we grow. Plus separation from anything Holy. This results in transgression of laws that God gave to reveal sin opposite to His Holiness. But, again....obedience to law is just controlling our fallen nature.

A new nature of the very image of God, Holiness, is what we have. Failures to come to fullness of this is covered as we walk to the goal of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Otherwise men would faint and be weary if one needed to "sweat" by laboring. And this is the curse of the law.

Sweat is not resting in the finished work, nor is it living out of heavenly realms.
Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ezekiel 36:26-28, "A new heart, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."[/FONT]


Otherwise men would faint and be weary if one needed to "sweat" by laboring. And this is the curse of the law.
You made that up, Scripture says different;

The “curse of the Law” is receiving death for sin worthy of death. Yahshua/Jesus took that curse upon Himself for all those in Him.

1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."

Deuteronomy 21:22-23, “And when a man has committed a sin worthy of death, then he shall be put to death and you shall hang him on a tree. Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of Yah – so that you do not defile the land which יהוה your Strength is giving you as an inheritance.”

Galatians 3:10-14, “10, "For as many as are of works of Torah are under the curse, for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all that has been written in the Book of the Torah, to do them.” (Deut 27:26) 11, "And that no one is declared right by Torah before YHWH is clear, for “The righteous shall live by belief. (Hab 2:4)” 12, "And the Torah is not of belief, but “The man who does them shall live by them, (Leviticus 18:5)” 13, "Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Torah, having become a curse for us – for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree.” – (Deut 21:23) 14, "in order that the blessing of Aḇraham might come upon the nations in Messiah יהושע, to receive the promise of the Spirit through belief."

Galatians 3:13,(KJV) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law (death), being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."

Deuteronomy 27:26, “Cursed is he who does not establish the Words of this Torah.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Awmĕin!”

Deuteronomy 21:22-23, “And when a man has committed a sin worthy of death, then he shall be put to death and you shall hang him on a tree. Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of YHWH – so that you do not defile the land which יהוה your Strength is giving you as an inheritance.”
 
P

PHart

Guest
see, once again, you are saying this- we are saved by faith, maintained, through good works...
Can you quote the exact place where I said we are maintained through good works? I did not say that because I do not believe that. Justification/salvation is secured and maintained by trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Works are the result of that trusting.


...and if you keep the faith and do enough good works, God grants you grace.
No, God declares us righteous in his sight and saves us solely on the basis of our trust in Him, not because of a work we do (2 Timothy 1:9). The righteous work of the saved person that he couldn't do before he was saved is the result of him being declared righteous through his trust in Christ.


...the Bible says we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith FOR good works.
Which is exactly what I've been saying--works are the work we get saved to do (Titus 2:14).

Perhaps what you disagree with is the person who doesn't have the 'for good works' part of Ephesians 2:10 after claiming to be saved is not the believer he thinks he is. His inability to produce the good works of the Spirit testifying to the fact that he does not have the Holy Spirit in salvation to produce those works.


I understand pride, especially male pride, and in the Biblical way we do not get to take credit for our salvation, our good works are a result of being saved. so I get that you and others want to, I some way, take credit for a part of your salvation. but, that is not what the Bible says.
Save this for the person who thinks they are earning their own salvation by what they do. I'm not one of them. Justification is solely on the basis of the forgiveness of sins. Period. You can not work your sin debt away. The only way to be blameless before God is for Him to forgive your sin.

The righteous work we produce from that point onward is the result of that declaration of righteousness, not the securer of it. The part you probably can't accept is the person who isn't walking in the 'for good works' part of Ephesians 2:10 is simply showing himself to not be born again:

"anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God" (1 John 3:10 NASB).
 
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stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


Ezekiel 36:26-28, "A new heart, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."




You made that up, Scripture says different;

The “curse of the Law” is receiving death for sin worthy of death. Yahshua/Jesus took that curse upon Himself for all those in Him.

1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."

Deuteronomy 21:22-23, “And when a man has committed a sin worthy of death, then he shall be put to death and you shall hang him on a tree. Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of Yah – so that you do not defile the land which יהוה your Strength is giving you as an inheritance.”

Galatians 3:10-14, “10, "For as many as are of works of Torah are under the curse, for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all that has been written in the Book of the Torah, to do them.” (Deut 27:26) 11, "And that no one is declared right by Torah before YHWH is clear, for “The righteous shall live by belief. (Hab 2:4)” 12, "And the Torah is not of belief, but “The man who does them shall live by them, (Leviticus 18:5)” 13, "Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Torah, having become a curse for us – for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree.” – (Deut 21:23) 14, "in order that the blessing of Aḇraham might come upon the nations in Messiah יהושע, to receive the promise of the Spirit through belief."

Galatians 3:13,(KJV) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law (death), being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."

Deuteronomy 27:26, “Cursed is he who does not establish the Words of this Torah.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Awmĕin!”

Deuteronomy 21:22-23, “And when a man has committed a sin worthy of death, then he shall be put to death and you shall hang him on a tree. Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of YHWH – so that you do not defile the land which יהוה your Strength is giving you as an inheritance.”
No, Hiz, I didn't make that up about sweat. I see the pictures through symbolism in the OT. The curse began on Adam, that he would sweat in labor to produce what he needed from a cursed earth that produced weeds etc. alongside the fruit of his labor.

Many things in the OT show this. I think I mentioned once before about the linen undergarment of the priests. I have an inquiring mind. And I know the details are important too. So I researched. Linen is a cool cloth. There is not sweat produced with wearing it.

Then the cloth over the face of Jesus, not linen as the shroud over His body. Found separate from the linen. Not a napkin as some teach, but a cloth used as a headband to keep sweat from getting in the eyes while working.

We need a new way of sight. From laboring to make oneself acceptable to God by what is produced by obedience to the written Word, versus the way of rest in the labor of Jesus, and the new way of living in the Spirit. Following His lead as He shows the way to go.

Do word studies Hiz on the OT. You'll be surprised at what He reveals. But, what He said to me, I will pass on.

" If you seek to see me, in all that you do, you will do well". This I obey.
 

posthuman

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If all "fall short", then so did Jesus.
which are you confessing here - that you need to re-write Romans? or that you also need to re-write the entire Bible, because you think Jesus is just a man?

no one is good, but God alone

 

posthuman

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I don't recall ever using this site before my join date.

Perhaps the obedient aren't as outnumbered as you hope?
perhaps your memory is 'covered by the blood' and has become as distant 'as the east is from the west' ?
 

posthuman

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Who are you really.......a previously banned member used to say the exact same thing......and a few other things you say as well?
we've certainly seen this spirit before, at any rate. what are you supposed to do with it? it invites us to be vain.
 

posthuman

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Thanks for asking...
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men; two kinds of walk.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing. (Also used by Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
A applies to those who walk in the light and B applies to those who walk in the darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those who walk in the darkness.

A...
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

B...
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us..

Hope that helps.
A: people who confess their sin

B: people who claim to have none







¡claro!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
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A: people who confess their sin

B: people who claim to have none

the claim is that ∀
α ∈ A, α ∈ B
therefore the claim can be re-written that A ⊂ B.

we will show this is impossible.



[HR][/HR]


proof:

let α ∈ A and β ∈ B,
then
α ∈ {light} and β ∈ {darkness}
suppose
α = β
light has no fellowship with darkness, therefore
{light} ∩ {darkness} = ∅
and
αβ
β was arbitrarily chosen, so α ∉ B
which implies A ⊄ B,
and more strongly, because
α was chosen arbitrarily as well,
A ∩ B = ∅







"it's just the math "


 
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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I don't recall ever using this site before my join date.

Perhaps the obedient aren't as outnumbered as you hope?
Saying "I don't recall" is tantamount to lying, and is almost universally used to avoid telling the truth while simultaneously attempting to cling to a piece of false truth.

In this person's mind they haven't really sinned, they have merely chosen to forget a truth.

It is the same kind of deception he has used when he tried to slice and dice Scripture to say that Peter was NOT being a hypocrite in Galatians 2.

Incredible the mental gymnastics one must go through to try and convince themselves that they never commit sin.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Saying "I don't recall" is tantamount to lying, and is almost universally used to avoid telling the truth while simultaneously attempting to cling to a piece of false truth.

In this person's mind they haven't really sinned, they have merely chosen to forget a truth.

It is the same kind of deception he has used when he tried to slice and dice Scripture to say that Peter was NOT being a hypocrite in Galatians 2.

Incredible the mental gymnastics one must go through to try and convince themselves that they never commit sin.

Penned.. I understand many can play with words.. but some folks including myself at times can’t recall lasts nights dinner hehe..

Willfull lying is deliberately trying to deceive a person... we all can have a recall issue though I don’t believe you could forget being a member of cc.. unless one had a severe memory condition..