Not By Works
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R
"your eyes will behold your Teacher. Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left."-Isaish 30:20-21
God writes his commandments on our hearts and his word speaks to us and guides us. Our responsibility is to not quench that voice.....if we even have that voice in us by the Holy Spirit. Fruitless people show they do not have that voice in them leading them. Only the sons and daughters of God have that voice in them.
"all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."-Romans 8:14
You show yourself to be that son or daughter when you obey, walking by the Spirit.
God writes his commandments on our hearts and his word speaks to us and guides us. Our responsibility is to not quench that voice.....if we even have that voice in us by the Holy Spirit. Fruitless people show they do not have that voice in them leading them. Only the sons and daughters of God have that voice in them.
"all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."-Romans 8:14
You show yourself to be that son or daughter when you obey, walking by the Spirit.
R
Don't you have anything to add of value to the discussion? Doctrine is what we need here, not empty criticism, which is what your mentors have been doing. They've stopped adding anything useful to the discussion. They just attack personally and offer no substance. You've started acting like them, even talking like them, and it's sad to see. You were different before.
R
That's what I've been saying.
If you are living in sin you are showing yourself to not be saved and you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
What happens is, people read passages like Galatians 5:21 and they think, "oh, I'm born again, so that passage isn't talking about me (even though I'm living in sin)." In stead of saying what they should be saying, "oh, I'm living in sin, I'm not born again and am not going to inherit the kingdom."
That's the distortion of thinking once saved always saved doctrine causes. Even though Calvin himself (the author of traditional once saved always saved doctrine) said the person who is living in sin is not born again. He did not say the person living in sin is going to inherit the kingdom because he is already born again.
I think you don't disagree with this, but just when I think we're not that far apart in beliefs you surprise me with resistance to what I'm saying.
Although I'm okay with what you say, in context Paul is showing how Christ's grace in salvation is just that much greater than the sin that gets exposed and magnified and increased by the law.
"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased (through knowledge of sin by the law), grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."-Romans 5:20-21
The problem is, some people in this thread have used grace abounding all the more to mean you can not out sin God's grace after you are saved. Hence the term 'h-grace'. No since naming names of those who said this since they will deny they said it anyway.
If you mean 'once saved always saved' doctrine, that is part of the 'P' in Calvinism. That is until recently when the likes of Charles Stanley and others got hold of it and stripped it away from Calvin's teachings and decided it meant you could even stop believing altogether (oops, just departed from Calvin's teaching) and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back. This seems to be the variation on a theme that many Christians are leaning towards in the church now. The difficult part being, they are embracing the new while still holding on to the old. It makes for difficult conversation with them because they choose the side of these two opposing arguments that is useful at the moment.
If you are living in sin you are showing yourself to not be saved and you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
What happens is, people read passages like Galatians 5:21 and they think, "oh, I'm born again, so that passage isn't talking about me (even though I'm living in sin)." In stead of saying what they should be saying, "oh, I'm living in sin, I'm not born again and am not going to inherit the kingdom."
That's the distortion of thinking once saved always saved doctrine causes. Even though Calvin himself (the author of traditional once saved always saved doctrine) said the person who is living in sin is not born again. He did not say the person living in sin is going to inherit the kingdom because he is already born again.
I think you don't disagree with this, but just when I think we're not that far apart in beliefs you surprise me with resistance to what I'm saying.
Although I'm okay with what you say, in context Paul is showing how Christ's grace in salvation is just that much greater than the sin that gets exposed and magnified and increased by the law.
"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased (through knowledge of sin by the law), grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."-Romans 5:20-21
The problem is, some people in this thread have used grace abounding all the more to mean you can not out sin God's grace after you are saved. Hence the term 'h-grace'. No since naming names of those who said this since they will deny they said it anyway.
If you mean 'once saved always saved' doctrine, that is part of the 'P' in Calvinism. That is until recently when the likes of Charles Stanley and others got hold of it and stripped it away from Calvin's teachings and decided it meant you could even stop believing altogether (oops, just departed from Calvin's teaching) and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back. This seems to be the variation on a theme that many Christians are leaning towards in the church now. The difficult part being, they are embracing the new while still holding on to the old. It makes for difficult conversation with them because they choose the side of these two opposing arguments that is useful at the moment.
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R
Undergrace, be aware that I have to be careful about what we're talking about because we're touching the doctrine that is forbidden around here (even though I myself am not teaching nor defending it), and because I know there are those lying in wait to catch me in something they can use to get me banned, just as they did to the others.
Even though they are the ones actually teaching the forbidden doctrine here, not me, they could use it against me and go to a moderator and say I'm discussing it and get me banned, even though I'm not doing that, just pointing out that others are doing that.
Even though they are the ones actually teaching the forbidden doctrine here, not me, they could use it against me and go to a moderator and say I'm discussing it and get me banned, even though I'm not doing that, just pointing out that others are doing that.
If God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,in the beginning,without the choice of the people to accept or reject truth,here are some faults with that.
1.God's kingdom is not true love,for they have no choice but to say I love you seeing no other alternative.I programmed my computer to say,I love you,but does my computer love me.
2.God would be condemning people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative,and God is not evil.
3.All have sinned and come short of the glory of God,and there is no one that does good,no,not one,and all our righteousness is as filthy rags,and God is no respecter of persons,and says who makes you to differ from another,so why would God choose some,and not others,without their choice,when all people are the same as sinners,and if you offend in the least of the law you offend all the law.
4.If God chose them in the beginning without their choice,then their repentance is not real,their confession of Christ is not real,their love for God and Christ is not real,for it does not come from them but God.
5.If God chose who will be saved in the beginning without their choice,then God would of not created the earth,for it would serve no purpose,because He could of created them with a glorified body to dwell with Him,and cut out the earth,and the result would be the same for they have no choice so their choice is not real,and He would not allow all the suffering,and pain,and troubles,that goes on in the earth,and would not condemn anyone that did not have a choice.
They need to understand the Bible.
God says He wants all people to repent,and come to the truth,and be saved,so He did not choose who will be saved or not saved without their choice,although they would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life,but they have to make the choice to walk through that door,which is to understand that they have to abstain from sin by the Spirit,which some do not do that.
That is why the Bible says many are called but few are chosen,for not everybody walks through that door of truth that confesses Christ,and God does the calling and choosing on earth.
If God chose in the beginning who will be saved without their choice then why would He be calling people on earth that cannot be chosen,for many are called but few are chosen.
God had the plan to give mankind salvation,so it is the same as if the saints have that salvation in the beginning,although it was a future event to all who accept that salvation,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world,and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world,although they were future events,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.
The Spirit and bride say,Come,and whosoever will can have that salvation,and Jesus lights every person that is born in this world,which means everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.
God says He wants all people to repent,and come to the truth,and be saved,and many are called but few are chosen,but they will still insist that they were chosen in the beginning,and do not make a choice,so they cannot fall,once saved always saved,but how do they come to that interpretation.
They like to believe that way so they do not have pressure in their life,but the Bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,and they can enjoy sin,and do not have to worry about it affecting their relationship with God,but the Bible says the Lord knows them that are His having this seal,which this is the seal that seals the deal,that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity,and Paul said awake to righteousness,and sin not,but some have not the knowledge of God,and he speaks that to their shame.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
If works do not matter why did Jesus tell them to repent of their lack of works,and their works were not perfect before God,because if you lack works then you lack love,and love is greater than faith.
Paul says love does think an evil thought,and does not sin by the Spirit,but I suppose they are not interested when Paul speaks like that,but they like when he says faith alone,and not saved by works,but that is when we confess Christ,but after we receive the Spirit then it is faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,for we are spiritual then and not fleshy,which Paul says the same thing as James,that if he did not have charity,love in action,then he is nothing,and if they do not have works of love then they have erred from the faith,but I suppose they do not like when Paul says the same thing as James,and they want to drag faith alone,and not saved by works,throughout their walk with Christ.
Faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,means do not lack in love,for if you lack in love then your faith lacks,and you are not being led of the Spirit,which we see many people who claim Christ will enjoy money,and material things,for their wants,which Paul,James,and John,speak against.
1.God's kingdom is not true love,for they have no choice but to say I love you seeing no other alternative.I programmed my computer to say,I love you,but does my computer love me.
2.God would be condemning people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative,and God is not evil.
3.All have sinned and come short of the glory of God,and there is no one that does good,no,not one,and all our righteousness is as filthy rags,and God is no respecter of persons,and says who makes you to differ from another,so why would God choose some,and not others,without their choice,when all people are the same as sinners,and if you offend in the least of the law you offend all the law.
4.If God chose them in the beginning without their choice,then their repentance is not real,their confession of Christ is not real,their love for God and Christ is not real,for it does not come from them but God.
5.If God chose who will be saved in the beginning without their choice,then God would of not created the earth,for it would serve no purpose,because He could of created them with a glorified body to dwell with Him,and cut out the earth,and the result would be the same for they have no choice so their choice is not real,and He would not allow all the suffering,and pain,and troubles,that goes on in the earth,and would not condemn anyone that did not have a choice.
They need to understand the Bible.
God says He wants all people to repent,and come to the truth,and be saved,so He did not choose who will be saved or not saved without their choice,although they would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life,but they have to make the choice to walk through that door,which is to understand that they have to abstain from sin by the Spirit,which some do not do that.
That is why the Bible says many are called but few are chosen,for not everybody walks through that door of truth that confesses Christ,and God does the calling and choosing on earth.
If God chose in the beginning who will be saved without their choice then why would He be calling people on earth that cannot be chosen,for many are called but few are chosen.
God had the plan to give mankind salvation,so it is the same as if the saints have that salvation in the beginning,although it was a future event to all who accept that salvation,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world,and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world,although they were future events,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.
The Spirit and bride say,Come,and whosoever will can have that salvation,and Jesus lights every person that is born in this world,which means everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.
God says He wants all people to repent,and come to the truth,and be saved,and many are called but few are chosen,but they will still insist that they were chosen in the beginning,and do not make a choice,so they cannot fall,once saved always saved,but how do they come to that interpretation.
They like to believe that way so they do not have pressure in their life,but the Bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,and they can enjoy sin,and do not have to worry about it affecting their relationship with God,but the Bible says the Lord knows them that are His having this seal,which this is the seal that seals the deal,that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity,and Paul said awake to righteousness,and sin not,but some have not the knowledge of God,and he speaks that to their shame.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
If works do not matter why did Jesus tell them to repent of their lack of works,and their works were not perfect before God,because if you lack works then you lack love,and love is greater than faith.
Paul says love does think an evil thought,and does not sin by the Spirit,but I suppose they are not interested when Paul speaks like that,but they like when he says faith alone,and not saved by works,but that is when we confess Christ,but after we receive the Spirit then it is faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,for we are spiritual then and not fleshy,which Paul says the same thing as James,that if he did not have charity,love in action,then he is nothing,and if they do not have works of love then they have erred from the faith,but I suppose they do not like when Paul says the same thing as James,and they want to drag faith alone,and not saved by works,throughout their walk with Christ.
Faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,means do not lack in love,for if you lack in love then your faith lacks,and you are not being led of the Spirit,which we see many people who claim Christ will enjoy money,and material things,for their wants,which Paul,James,and John,speak against.
U
Oh yes Ralphie we do need to be very vigilant and cautious what we say...they may be screening every word we type 
No worries, no need to discuss, but just to clarify free grace and hypergrace are not the same.
I would also state that those in the free grace camp do not want to be linked to hypergrace from what I have read, of course there are always exceptions.
We can leave it at that...I am not wanting anyone to get banned
No worries, no need to discuss, but just to clarify free grace and hypergrace are not the same.
I would also state that those in the free grace camp do not want to be linked to hypergrace from what I have read, of course there are always exceptions.
We can leave it at that...I am not wanting anyone to get banned