Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
If your righteousness has zero to do with your salvation, then why did Jesus say this:

[FONT=&quot]19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]
 
Dec 12, 2013
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If your righteousness has zero to do with your salvation, then why did Jesus say this:

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
If you have to ask based upon context it will do no good to even begin to reply.....
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
If your righteousness has zero to do with your salvation, then why did Jesus say this:

[FONT=&quot]19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]
because its imputed righteousness that has to deal with salvation

not your own
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
also

is benhur a play on words saying youve been here?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If your righteousness has zero to do with your salvation, then why did Jesus say this:

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

No ones righteousness exceeded theirs. That was jesus point., every0one living then knew they were the people who followed Gods laws. When anyone would take their right4eousness, and comparing it with the pharisees, No ones stood the test.

What jesus is saying is a fact. If they can not get in, how do you think you can get in by your own obedience?

The answer is you can’t
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,756
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UnderGrace, eternally-grateful, stonesoffire, decontroversal, Rosemaryx, Lucy-Pevensie, ljs:

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints#Free_Grace_doctrine

The Free Grace or non-traditional Calvinist doctrine has been espoused by Charles Stanley, Norman Geisler, Zane C. Hodges, Bill Bright, and others. This view, like the traditional Calvinist view, emphasizes that people are saved purely by an act of divine grace that does not depend at all on the deeds of the individual, and for that reason, advocates insist that nothing the person can do can affect his or her salvation.
The Free Grace doctrine views the person's character and life after receiving the gift of salvation as independent from the gift itself, which is the main point of differentiation from the traditional Calvinist view, or, in other words, it asserts that justification (that is, being declared righteous before God on account of Christ) does not necessarily result in sanctification (that is, a progressively more righteous life). Charles Stanley, pastor of Atlanta's megachurch First Baptist and a television evangelist, has written that the doctrine of eternal security of the believer persuaded him years ago to leave his familial Pentecostalism and become a Southern Baptist. He sums up his deep conviction that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone when he claims, "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation."[SUP][6][/SUP] For example, Stanley writes:
Look at that verse [John 3:18] and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual "believe in" Him.
— Charles Stanley[SUP][6][/SUP] (p. 67).
In a chapter entitled "For Those Who Stop Believing", he says, "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand (p. 74)." A little later, Stanley also writes: "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord" (p. 80).


Now maybe you all can see you have been pushing Freegrace doctrine in this thread.......and getting away with it.

Do yourself a favor and at least go back to traditional 'P' once saved always saved. At least that doctrine doesn't have people living in sin and them still being saved.
Hello Ralph...I just want to say I have never heard of the people above apart from one which is Charles Stanley , and I have never heard him speak , so I do not follow these people , and I have never believed in any other GRACE apart from the GRACE that God has given me...

I truly believe that I have been saved by God's GRACE , and by the free gift of FAITH that God has given me , and I have nothing whatsoever to boast about in myself , because EVERYTHING I have comes from Him...

Any good works I do I do because God wills me to them , I am saved because I did not except Jesus Christ as my LORD and Savior from lip service I accepted Him from God who called me to His Son , I accepted Jesus from my heart , wholeheartedly and NOT from this man made grace you are talking about...My GRACE comes from God the same said for many in here who walk with our LORD , and your cheap shots are just that CHEAP...

So please do not put me in a box that YOU think I should be put in because of YOUR belief , I love my Lord Jesus Christ , and I follow Him , I hear HIS voice , and NOTHING no NOTHING can SEPARATE me from His love...In Jesus name I type this...xox...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Hello Ralph...I just want to say I have never heard of the people above apart from one which is Charles Stanley , and I have never heard him speak , so I do not follow these people , and I have never believed in any other GRACE apart from the GRACE that God has given me...

I truly believe that I have been saved by God's GRACE , and by the free gift of FAITH that God has given me , and I have nothing whatsoever to boast about in myself , because EVERYTHING I have comes from Him...

Any good works I do I do because God wills me to them , I am saved because I did not except Jesus Christ as my LORD and Savior from lip service I accepted Him from God who called me to His Son , I accepted Jesus from my heart , wholeheartedly and NOT from this man made grace you are talking about...My GRACE comes from God the same said for many in here who walk with our LORD , and your cheap shots are just that CHEAP...

So please do not put me in a box that YOU think I should be put in because of YOUR belief , I love my Lord Jesus Christ , and I follow Him , I hear HIS voice , and NOTHING no NOTHING can SEPARATE me from His love...In Jesus name I type this...xox...
Amen.....once you see the truth of the word and fallacies and lies spread by the enemy of Christ.....it is easy to make an stand against it ALL.....
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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While works doesn't save us they are proof of our faith. The Bible states faith without works is dead. Therefore works are required to validate the faith.
Can you name a work that would prove your faith. One you have performed.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest

the context of James 2 is admonishing a group of people for showing partiality.
for treating a rich man better than a poor man.

that's the specifics 'break one part of the law and be guilty of all of it' ((in Leviticus 19 it says do not show partiality to the rich)) -- and when James says 'one of you will say, i have faith and you have works' -- guess who it is ((in the context)) that says that?
and guess who it is that would turn away a person starving and freezing to death ((the specific example of 'works' he uses)) with only words and no physical help?
would it be the person who thinks they need redemption or the person who doesn't?
who does Jesus talk about, neglecting the poor?
people who boasted of works, or people who boasted of faith?

who was rich in Jewish society?

we talking about a pharisee here? one who has become a believer?

if we are, would that pharisee believer be likely to feel justified by his works, or by his faith?

James in context is not about salvation....and Jesus said ALL who have believed already have and done the WORKS of the FATHER......


for ben

its not instructions to get saved
.....
thats by grace through faith

not works
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
please dont be mad everyone

heres one more bump for ben

imputed righteousness
Romans
Chapter 4

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

________

ephesians 2


7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ

_______

Philippians 3

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

_________
romans 8
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


________

1 John 3
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

_______

romans 3


19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith
_______________________

To all who believe.... Doesn't fade

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:


1 John Chapter 5

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

__________

food for throught to those who think their salvation comes down to their actions apart from faith in Him
says the guy who doesnt even see hebrews 10 is telling the Jews to quit their sacrifices


a saved believer cannot actually cease to believe

they are a new creature....

born again


those who believe of God and even for a time retain knowledge of Him
and then fall away

never believed IN Him

and He never placed the new heart and spirit in them
or they surely would have continued in faith

______________
Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ



__________

once you are born again
His incorruptible seed remains in you....

1 peter
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


________

1 peter

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


WORDS FROM JESUS
John 6
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
No ones righteousness exceeded theirs. That was jesus point., every0one living then knew they were the people who followed Gods laws. When anyone would take their right4eousness, and comparing it with the pharisees, No ones stood the test.

What jesus is saying is a fact. If they can not get in, how do you think you can get in by your own obedience?

The answer is you can’t
You are right in one aspect. The people of that day thought that the scribes and pharisees righteousness was the top of the line righteousness. In that respect, you are right.

However, Jesus came and pretty much crushed the mighty scribes and pharisees bubble and it is he that said, "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you will in no case enter into the KOH.

To you, Paul seems to put little value in living righteously, but Jesus obviously does. It is Jesus that tells us that our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees or we are not getting into the KOH. You can twist that verbiage all you want, but it stands as a testimony to live a righteous life.

Isn't that what being saved is all about? A new heart is placed in the old man? Do you think that new heart will lead to sin?
No, if you are really saved, it will lead to increased faithful righteousness. So Jesus has a point, don't you think?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
Hi everyone,

Here I am to spoil your day.
How your all doing?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Hi everyone,

Here I am to spoil your day.
How your all doing?
how could you just barge in like this?!
(>_<)

lol jp

hey brother

i hope youre having a blessed day
:D


(im doing fantastic by the way.... praise God)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dec 12, 2013
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Seems to me that would be the first work after the gift of salvation. Is this true? Could be missing something though.
Just base it upon the words of JESUS

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe

Jesus said, "The work of the Father is to believe upon the one whom he sent"

One who has believed in/on Christ has both salvation and the works of the Father attributed to their account