Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Matthew 13:14-15, “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is completely filled, which says, ‘Hearing you shall hear and by no means understand, and seeing you shall see and by no means perceive, for the heart of this people has become thickened, and their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart, and turn back, and I heal them.” (Isa 6:9-10)
Who are you referring to?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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"A double minded man is unstable in all His ways."
"Not all that say to Me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of God, but those who do the will of My Father in heaven."
Salvation is "Kept by the power of God." "Keep yourselves in the Love of God." "Not of works lest any man should boast."

Last night dreamt I was tempted to be divided in spirit again: in the dream was cutting something in half. It occurred to me to look at what I was cutting in half, to my horror it was a dead body, the body of sin: if we are divided even the good in us is sin. My thought was to forget the horror of what I saw and turning to the Lord, heard: Be made whole. By then was awake, and later got up and turned to the Lord; acknowledging my sin of desiring to turn to the word for help in deceitful desires, and prayed, "To be made whole by the faith that is in Jesus." Jesus had already spoken it into existence to me as I woke from the dream: I was praying to receive it. Then saw the meaning of "The work of God, to believe on Him whom He has sent." God works in us an exchange of Identity with Christ: To believe is to follow, to go in His name. If we think we are better than others we are not in Christ. The beauty of perfection is not to be better: God doesn't think of Himself as better, He did not need to recover from being worse; rather perfection is compassion for the Lost. "For God is at work in you both to will and do His good pleasure," to follow Him in His death to all that is not of God: is the end of our dead works. "Daily pick up your cross and follow Me," ends our work, to enter into rest in God. "Through much trouble we enter the kingdom of God," "Work out your renewal, is "Faith that works by Love," and we know that "God is Love," in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. No one can attain to the Resurrection without the Holy Spirit, "The simplicity of Christ." We cant take credit for the work of God, rather we need to invest our whole heart and give credit to God for our interest. "Your pound has gained ten Pounds." What we have been freely given, we can lose by not walking in it: holding on to our old life. "Take the pound from him and give it to him who gained ten pounds: Lord He has ten pounds." This appears to make it obvious that while we are to lay our crown at His feet, acknowledging they are of Him, we get to keep them. "Just as the stars differ one from another in glory, so also is the Resurrection."

Decided to include this part of a study, related to the divided spirit in our dreams.
Enter in as a little child and put away your divided spirit:
"The weapons of our warfare are not of our fleshly mind, but mighty through God to pull down strong holds; turning down imaginations and every proud thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, to bring every thoughts in obedience of Christ." Obedience to God is dependence on the Holy Spirit. "Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit sais the Lord." To be filled with the Spirit is ongoing, leading us in the relationship of Jesus in constant fellowship with the Father. We will not be satisfied until we find our rest in God. Life in this world is a dream that wakes us up when we suffer disappointment; alone and in deep darkness, unprepared to suffer the journey alone with God, identified in the death of Christ. Without the power and leading of the Holy Spirit we are like the disciples at Gethsemane, tempted to go back asleep in the old dream. If we don't know how to interpret we won't enjoy the wonder. What we learn in the waiting on the Lord, is more important than what we are waiting for: renewed strength is to continue to appear before God, Grace to persevere through uncertain times, otherwise we would stop short on the journey. "One thing is needful," to forget what lies behind and go on to know the Lord, to prepare our heart for spiritual awakening: that we may enter in His rest.
How do you reconcile Matthew 5,6,&7 into your theology?
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Still I muse the question...
Why do some "want" Salvation to be loseable so strongly?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
8,769
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Where does the words of Jesus in Matthew 5,6,&7 have a place in your theology?
This is what I posted earlier in this thread. Are YOU going to fully trust in Jesus and HIS FULFILLMENT of the Law, or is YOUR righteousness going to EXCEED that of the Pharisees?

I believe it is key to understanding the sermon on the Mount:

This is the ABSOLUTE key to what lies at the heart of this thread.

Jesus offers 2 ways in Matthew 5 to get to the Kingdom of Heaven.

The 1st is by YOUR righteousness EXCEEDING the righteousness of the Pharisees. We tend to see the Pharisees as bad guys. The truth is that many EARNESTLY attempted with GREAT zeal to keep ALL the Law. NOBODY ever got closer to keeping ALL the Law than them. They were PROFESSIONAL Law keepers!

Jesus is saying that you must EXCEED how they kept the Law, then He goes to GREAT lengths to show the impossibility of keeping ALL the Law, by saying that mere thought, like momentary anger equating to murder, or a glance with desire as adultery. And If you fail, then you better pluck out your eye or cut off your arm. That is option ONE to attain eternal life. Living a perfect, sinless life.

Option 2 is this:Matthew 5:Christ Fulfills the Law17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to FULFILL.

I believe Jesus uses this juxtaposition of the "2" ways to Salvation several others times in Scripture.
Notably here:

Luke 18:9-14 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who TRUSTED IN THEMSELVES that THEY were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

And again with the rich young ruler who claimed to have followed ALL the Law since childhood.

You CANNOT fill a cup that is already full. So many people THINK they have the answer. They cannot be born again til their cup is emptied out. THEN the LORD can fill their cups!
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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John explained it, and it was NOT to get saved, to have his sins washed away, or to join a church.

John 1: 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
So from this, what reason did Jesus go to John to be baptized? We do know that he told John to water baptize him to fulfill all righteousness.

So tell me what righteousness this even fulfilled for Jesus?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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to fulfill all righteousness...


the same perfect righteousness that will cover those who are born again....



by grace through faith and 'not by works'
What righteousness was fulfilled at that water baptismal event?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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For one who has dug their heals. To ask someone else if they are going to do the same is prety sad don’t you think?
That person dug their heels in and has not been water baptized even yet. I have. That is the digging in of heals I was talking about.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Who do you count among the "too many?"

Everyone I know on this thread has affirmed that works follow salvation.
Amen Magenta, we are saved "unto good works", that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them, but "good works will not save you. Why this is such a difficult concept to understand I will never know. Eternal Salvation is a, "gift of God." If you add your works to the blood sacrifice of Jesus you are, "boasting" and have fallen from grace.

This is oh so basic Christian Theology; "Jesus payed it all, all to Him I owe.", repent from your boasting.

Ephesians2:8-10 True Gospel
8
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not from yourselves it is the gift of God
9) "not by works", so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
 
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N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
What righteousness was fulfilled at that water baptismal event?
the same perfect righteousness that will cover those who are born again....



by grace through faith and 'not by works'
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered a sacrifice. Abel's faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous (Hebrews 11:4). Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12) so Abel offered his sacrifice by or "out of" faith and Cain did not.
So out of faith in God, Abel sacrificed to God. That is a good thing. Would Abel have been lost if he had not sacrificed?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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It does not matter to me, You can do as you wish. But it may matter to god.

My faith is in God

Your faith is in God plus your baptism. So I would personally question if you had faith in God. Just as paul did when he questioned the jews who had faiht in God plus circumcision
You have missed my point. Whether I believe that baptism is necessary or not should not matter according to your belief that we are saved the moment the HS enters us. No matter what I do after that is inconsequential, since I am saved, and I have faith in Jesus and the HG has immersed me into the body of Christ.

So whether I believe baptism is necessary, according to your belief is neither here nor there. So why are you so incensed to prove me wrong? Why are there others that call me names and think I am the devil and all that? If we are all saved the moment we believe and are immersed by the HS, why all the vitriol?

It starts to become obvious that you really do not believe what you think you believe. Having been saved, will I not be forgiven for believing that baptism is essential to salvation? You know, if I can be forgiven of murder and rape, I should be able to be forgiven for going out and teaching baptism. Am I right?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
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Our eternal salvation cannot be earned, however believe in the Lord Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins and you will be saved. Believe in God's Son "plus" keeping the law is a false gospel. Even a child can understand saved by grace and not by works. If you are proclaiming a gospel of grace plus works you have fallen from grace. You are teaching a false gospel and need to repent.

John3:16-18 ​- True Gospel
16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
You and others ignore the relationship between faith and works. The Bible states faith without works is dead. Therefore works are required to demonstrate true faith.

No works no faith.
Works proves faith.
Therefore works are required.

Faith saves.
Works proves saving faith.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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This is what I posted earlier in this thread. Are YOU going to fully trust in Jesus and HIS FULFILLMENT of the Law, or is YOUR righteousness going to EXCEED that of the Pharisees?

I believe it is key to understanding the sermon on the Mount:

This is the ABSOLUTE key to what lies at the heart of this thread.

Jesus offers 2 ways in Matthew 5 to get to the Kingdom of Heaven.

The 1st is by YOUR righteousness EXCEEDING the righteousness of the Pharisees. We tend to see the Pharisees as bad guys. The truth is that many EARNESTLY attempted with GREAT zeal to keep ALL the Law. NOBODY ever got closer to keeping ALL the Law than them. They were PROFESSIONAL Law keepers!

Jesus is saying that you must EXCEED how they kept the Law, then He goes to GREAT lengths to show the impossibility of keeping ALL the Law, by saying that mere thought, like momentary anger equating to murder, or a glance with desire as adultery. And If you fail, then you better pluck out your eye or cut off your arm. That is option ONE to attain eternal life. Living a perfect, sinless life.

Option 2 is this:Matthew 5:Christ Fulfills the Law17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to FULFILL.

I believe Jesus uses this juxtaposition of the "2" ways to Salvation several others times in Scripture.
Notably here:

Luke 18:9-14 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who TRUSTED IN THEMSELVES that THEY were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

And again with the rich young ruler who claimed to have followed ALL the Law since childhood.

You CANNOT fill a cup that is already full. So many people THINK they have the answer. They cannot be born again til their cup is emptied out. THEN the LORD can fill their cups!
The above can be summarised, walking righteously is impossible, and just blind legalism.
But it relies on the concept, anger against ones brother is impossible to avoid, or a
lustful look at a woman.

Jesus criticism of the pharisees is that they were hypocrites and did not do what they
taught. But the view here is they actually were the best humans could ever achieve.

This ignores Jesus criticism of them have dead hearts with no love, being full of greed
and self indulgence, that needed to be cleaned and purified. By ignoring this one is
saying living an impure and unholy life is the lot of a believer, while the bible declares the
opposite. It is sinners rather than saints who argue and believe this way.

Christ did not conquer sin in the believers life, it is just an external shield so we avoid
judgement while still being held under sins grasp. What a defeated concept of love and
life.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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I am surprised with the words "my faith is in God"

I say surprised because this view of God is a God who does not teach people how to walk in
His ways, to have love at the center of ones life and focus, or to be able to change ones
behavior through the Holy Spirit and the work of God in our hearts. This is so strange because
these changes are the sign of conversion and the power of Gods word speaking to us, and empowering
us to live a different type of life.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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So from this, what reason did Jesus go to John to be baptized? We do know that he told John to water baptize him to fulfill all righteousness.

So tell me what righteousness this even fulfilled for Jesus?

?? Did you not read. I said it in my post. In fact I highlighted the words. John told us why Jesus came, and why he had to be baptised. Please go and read again.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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That person dug their heels in and has not been water baptized even yet. I have. That is the digging in of heals I was talking about.

So you are going to be judge jury and executioner? Are you her descipler? Are you her pastor? What gives you the right to judge anyone?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The same way that you know that you had the baptism of the spirit. So if you remember how the HS came to you, ditto that for me.
Please do tell. I would love to hear how you know.

I know because God told me if I call out to him, he will baptise me with the spirit. And I do nto think God is a liar. I placed my faiht in HIM based on the CROSS.

You place your faith in some pastor to immerse you in water. So please do tell. How you recieved the baptism of the spirit.

ps. Have you ever answered my question about eph, where Paul said there was ONE BAPTISM??
 

jimd

Member
Dec 9, 2017
124
20
18
It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Yet the scripture teaches if we have no works our faith is dead, therefore no salvation.