Not By Works

[BillG]

The HS was sent to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment.

People who do not open their eyes do so in unbelief, Those who have their eyes opened do so because they seek.

As God said, Seek and ye shall find..

The people in John 6 did not see, Because as Jesus said, unbelief.

God did not turn your eyes on, and forbid the nest person from ever having even a chance to seek, Because he di not open their eyes..

John 16:7-11
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.




John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[BillG]

Paul argues that children of believers are made Holy through the believing parent.
He is arguing in a sense a child who dies will go to be with Jesus because of the parent.
With child mortality being 6 children 2 survive, this was an obvious question raised by
believers. You can see how this became child baptism etc.

In faith the idea of eternal torture for a child of two years old is absurd.
If they have tasted life for such a short time, yet deserve an eternity of punishment,
appears unjust. On the other hand the destruction of that which is rebellious
and disfunctional makes perfect sense.

What I do know is what I see in my life is not understanding but observation of
what happens. So grief is like a wave that takes away part of you. You are
disabled and lost, yet you do not choose it, it is very, very real.
So on the day of judgement those who claim so much will discover what they
truly are, and there is no remedy.

If you see people speeding on motor bikes, they know they could
meet a stationary object, but the temptation to go too fast is there, splat.
Jesus calls to all, yet only the elect turn to the invitation.

What about the children who die before the age of accountability (however one defines it) and thier parents are not believers?

Can you clarify "which is rebellious and DISFUNCTIONAL

Nothing cryptic please

 

[Grace777x70]

yeah I have heard both, googled it and found both yay and nay....and I should have clarified....GOD chastens his children who are wayward (which breaks us sometimes) and the end result is we are likely to not wander next time and it yields the peaceable fruits of righteousness.....

Amen....well said......I love that word "discipline" it means to "child-train" as in the raising of a son to take over and rule in the family business. We are in the family business of speaking and showing the love and grace of God towards us all.

If we think of God like a Father - then a lot of things come together for us and I believe we have a more accurate view of His nature. Jesus came to show us the true nature of the Father.

Some things are different now then in the OT. Remember John and James wanting to send down fire on the Samaritans like Elijah did and Jesus said "You don't know what kind of a spirit you are of - the Son of Man didn't come to destroy men's lives but I have come to save them."

 

[BillG]

It make evangelism pointless.

So believe what you want but i will speak to everyone as if they should have hope. And not teach im sorry some are unconditionally elected so some of you are dead men walking already.

Obviously something is being misunderstood.

I think its man trying to understand God and his ways to allow free will and also his all knowing to know who will have faith and be the elect.

it doesn't make evangelism pointless.

I think God knows who will believe and who won't.

Thing is I don't.

Jesus said to the disciples "Go and make disciples of all nations"

I don't think those that believe in pre-destination concerning salvation would agree with you in that it makes evangelism pointless.

 

[JIMBO43]

John 16:7-11
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.




John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This alll raises a good new argument billy.. That is are ther unbelievers in heaven.... meaning faith was not needed in this instance..

As i beieve the angels watch over the children until the age of accountabity.... meaning Children have guaardians who stare back into the face of The father...

I think the father takes care of the children untill there ready to recieve the son..

So that said there are no unbelievers in heaven...

And just one more more point mate,,, all tho some think that conviction is bad.... the holy spirit in John 16:7-11 convicts the believers not the unbelievers...

Conviction here is a blessing where when your convicted the heart opens up to recieve some good works..or at least that is how it should be.. in my book..

 

[Ariel82]

I worry about people who tell me they NEVER felt God convict them of any sins.

 

[BillG]

This alll raises a good new argument billy.. That is are ther unbelievers in heaven.... meaning faith was not needed in this instance..

As i beieve the angels watch over the children until the age of accountabity.... meaning Children have guaardians who stare back into the face of The father...

I think the father takes care of the children untill there ready to recieve the son..

So that said there are no unbelievers in heaven...

And just one more more point mate,,, all tho some think that conviction is bad.... the holy spirit in John 16:7-11 convicts the believers not the unbelievers...

Conviction here is a blessing where when your convicted the heart opens up to recieve some good works..or at least that is how it should be.. in my book..

No there won't be unbelievers in heaven.

I am not sure I agree with you concerning the quoted passage in John that the the Holy Spirit only convicts believers.
To me the Holy Spirit comes to convict the world of its sin of unbelief thats why Jesus died for the whole world.

Convict in the Greek can also mean convince.

I don't think the purpose of conviction in John is meant to open our hearts to receive some good works.

Its to bring us to a place of repentance of unbelief and change our minds of who Jesus actually is.

To me leading someone to Jesus is not about saying to them "repent of unbelief so your heart opens up to receive good works"

Yes when one believes and as they mature good works should follow.

Thats where discipleship comes in.

 

[dcontroversal]

No there won't be unbelievers in heaven.

I am not sure I agree with you concerning the quoted passage in John that the the Holy Spirit only convicts believers.
To me the Holy Spirit comes to convict the world of its sin of unbelief thats why Jesus died for the whole world.

Convict in the Greek can also mean convince.

I don't think the purpose of conviction in John is meant to open our hearts to receive some good works.

Its to bring us to a place of repentance of unbelief and change our minds of who Jesus actually is.

To me leading someone to Jesus is not about saying to them "repent of unbelief so your heart opens up to receive good works"

Yes when one believes and as they mature good works should follow.

Thats where discipleship comes in.

It states that he convinces and convicts the world of SIN<---WHY...because they BELIEVE NOT ON/IN ME (JESUS)

Logically, one can conclude that the Holy Spirit convinces and convicts lost men of their need for JESUS and faith.

For a long time this verse has alluded many....it equates the conviction of sin to NOT BELIEVING IN JESUS....go ponder that for a moment........

THE ISSUE if SIN has been settled when JESUS said it is FINISHED......the blood of Christ continually cleanses the believer as GRACE out bounds our sin as JESUS mediates for us non stop!

WHEN the blood has been applied the following is true...WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD, I WILL PASS OVER YOU!

 

[JIMBO43]

I once held more of a Christ does everything approach to faith.
The problem I have is the jump between how we are now into the blameless, holy,
Christ like state at some point in the future.

exactly mate and this is the mentality of the main host here that God does everything for you and even controls your actions.. maybe he takes our body for a walk to go and see some wonders...


[video=youtube;jX6TVRdCrFU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX6TVRdCrFU[/video]

 

[BillG]

It states that he convinces and convicts the world of SIN<---WHY...because they BELIEVE NOT ON/IN ME (JESUS)

Logically, one can conclude that the Holy Spirit convinces and convicts lost men of their need for JESUS and faith.

For a long time this verse has alluded many....it equates the conviction of sin to NOT BELIEVING IN JESUS....go ponder that for a moment........

THE ISSUE if SIN has been settled when JESUS said it is FINISHED......the blood of Christ continually cleanses the believer as GRACE out bounds our sin as JESUS mediates for us non stop!

WHEN the blood has been applied the following is true...WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD, I WILL PASS OVER YOU!

I think the word conviction as we understand it in our bibles can carry negatives with it.

I agree with you (if I am reading right) to me he convinces the world that Jesus is who he says he is then convicts them of that unbelief, that is to declare guilty of unbelief.

Its interesting that in

John 8:46
Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?

To me Jesus is saying "which of you declares me guilty of sin?

Then in John 16 we find convict the world of its sin.

So yes I feel the Holy Spirit convicts us if unbelief and then convinces that Jesus is whom he says he is.

 

[dcontroversal]

I think the word conviction as we understand it in our bibles can carry negatives with it.

I agree with you (if I am reading right) to me he convinces the world that Jesus is who he says he is then convicts them of that unbelief, that is to declare guilty of unbelief.

Its interesting that in

John 8:46
Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?

To me Jesus is saying "which of you declares me guilty of sin?

Then in John 16 we find convict the world of its sin.

So yes I feel the Holy Spirit convicts us if unbelief and then convinces that Jesus is whom he says he is.

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but will give you a point to ponder....

Jesus describe a man that would not look to heaven, beat upon his breast and said be merciful unto me a sinner.....

How would you describe the working of the Spirit and his attitude in this particular application?

 

[Dai3234]

I find it is impossible to know if you're saved. If you believe your saved, do you really believe? And if you do, the sign of a believer is good works, as it is written. So how does anyone really know if their works are good works fruit or rag works. I believe I'm saved, but don't feel I deserve it. So guilt says I shouldn't be, but want to be. But am I saved if I think this way? Sin keeps confusing my mind, so who knows but God? Turn from your old ways and don't be a dog returning to its vomit, as it says. See the issue. It's very hard without fellowship to build each other up in confidence, without pride also.

 

[JIMBO43]

No there won't be unbelievers in heaven.

I am not sure I agree with you concerning the quoted passage in John that the the Holy Spirit only convicts believers.
To me the Holy Spirit comes to convict the world of its sin of unbelief thats why Jesus died for the whole world.

Convict in the Greek can also mean convince.

I don't think the purpose of conviction in John is meant to open our hearts to receive some good works.

Its to bring us to a place of repentance of unbelief and change our minds of who Jesus actually is.

To me leading someone to Jesus is not about saying to them "repent of unbelief so your heart opens up to receive good works"

Yes when one believes and as they mature good works should follow.

Thats where discipleship comes in.

Yes billy but ya still not getting it... He comes to convict the world... but only the believers will be convicted..

 

[dcontroversal]

I find it is impossible to know if you're saved. If you believe your saved, do you really believe? And if you do, the sign of a believer is good works, as it is written. So how does anyone really know if their works are good works fruit or rag works. I believe I'm saved, but don't feel I deserve it. So guilt says I shouldn't be, but want to be. But am I saved if I think this way? Sin keeps confusing my mind, so who knows but God? Turn from your old ways and don't be a dog returning to its vomit, as it says. See the issue. It's very hard without fellowship to build each other up in confidence, without pride also.

Read 1st John.....and there are signs friend and read 1st Corinthians 3.....believers will have both types of works....and the works do not save, keep saved or facilitate salvation.

New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

King James Bible
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,

 

[Dai3234]

Yes billy but ya still not getting it... He comes to convict the world... but only the believers will be convicted..

Thought it mentioned somewhere, others will probably be in heaven? People who never heard of Jesus Christ. People who may have not sinned naturally or by grace? Not sure?

 

[JIMBO43]

I find it is impossible to know if you're saved. If you believe your saved, do you really believe? And if you do, the sign of a believer is good works, as it is written. So how does anyone really know if their works are good works fruit or rag works. I believe I'm saved, but don't feel I deserve it. So guilt says I shouldn't be, but want to be. But am I saved if I think this way? Sin keeps confusing my mind, so who knows but God? Turn from your old ways and don't be a dog returning to its vomit, as it says. See the issue. It's very hard without fellowship to build each other up in confidence, without pride also.

I disagree here coz i know i should have died many many times but i never..

 

[JIMBO43]

Thought it mentioned somewhere, others will probably be in heaven? People who never heard of Jesus Christ. People who may have not sinned naturally or by grace? Not sure?

Children will be there for definate..

 

[JIMBO43]

I worry about people who tell me they NEVER felt God convict them of any sins.

So do i.. but one must wonder why.... anyways maybe a whole lot of reasons.. like maybe being held against your will... lets not forget that...

 

[dcontroversal]

Thought it mentioned somewhere, others will probably be in heaven? People who never heard of Jesus Christ. People who may have not sinned naturally or by grace? Not sure?

There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not.

ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD.

There is none GOOD no not ONE

At the end of the day....there will be no one in heaven that has not come by the blood of Christ other than the children that have died "safe" under the blood before they were held accountable

 

[BillG]

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but will give you a point to ponder....

Jesus describe a man that would not look to heaven, beat upon his breast and said be merciful unto me a sinner.....

How would you describe the working of the Spirit and his attitude in this particular application?

Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

We find 2 people in this parable.

The Pharisee and the tax collector.

Interestingly the Pharisee uses "I" 5 times
It seems he is saying to God, I have done this done that therefore I am better than this dirty sinner next to me.
He was dissing the tax collector whilst saying "I'm worthy of your praise"

As for the tax collector

'He knew there was absoutley nothing he could do to impress God, his spirit was humble and as result he cries out face down "God I am a sinner have mercy on me there is nothing I can do to gain your favour, all I can do is say to you, I need you it is only your mercy and grace that can deliver me'

Then I think if Jesus was stood beside him as he beat his chest, head down and cried out to God, then Jesus would stoop down, give him a hug and lift his head and say "You have seen me and therefore seen the Father, come my friend let's walk together"