Not By Works

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

You seem to be willing to divide the bible in a before and after scenerio. How exactly do you do that. When exactly in the scriptures was the law fulfulled, and when in the scriptures did grace take over?

Is it true that some words of Jesus are spoken before the law was fulfilled, and so they are not under grace, therefore they do not reflect the true Christian (grace) doctrine?

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

TruthTalk said:

It stuns me, some standing before Jesus saying "look what I did for you" rather than
"look what you did for me"

Hi Katy-follower, very good points you make, this needs repeating to the plentiful works group.

Righteousness Through Faith: Romans3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

Doesn't faith require good works in the love of Jesus Christ?

TruthTalk · Apr 27, 2018

benhur said:

Yes for the self-righteous it does. Frankly I am putting you on ignore because personally I do not like you and your constant sarcasm is boring, good bye and have a nice forever.

blue_ladybug · Apr 27, 2018

Ya know, you could've just silently stuck him on ignore instead..

TruthTalk said:

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

TruthTalk said:

Hi NoName, at birth when a womans water breaks, its is not "mostly urine", as poster benhur claims. To make such an inaccurate statement as this is offensive to the human race and the thought of being born "in urine" as he claims is indefensible.

You are correct, benhur is not correct. A woman's water when it breaks is fluid,not urine.

Feeling the Water: Attribute; https://www.modernmom.com/2d4a82c6-051f-11e2-9d62-404062497d7e.html
Quote: Sometimes, it is obvious when your water breaks. You will feel a "gush of fluid" soaking through your clothing. You can’t mistake this for anything else. Other times, with water breaking in pregnancy, it is more subtle, and "you might mistake it for urine leakage" or vaginal discharge.

Just read what makes up amniotic fluid at birth, the majority of the fluid is not water.

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

Cee said:

My question would have been, what do you mean by 'being born again'? I wish that is what Nicodemus had asked, then perhaps Jesus would have elaborated on that and saved us the process of interpreting this passage of scripture.

ljs · Apr 27, 2018

Terrie431 said:

ljs, first of all I'm not even sure personal salvation can be proven, as it speaks to the heart. I believe if one is truly saved, they'll want to bring Glory to God to the best of their frail human ability. I know I do.

Since we are all unique, then wouldn't each bring glory to God in their own uniquely special way? If so, how can someone - anyone really - say this or that proves salvation?

Thanks!

Hi Terrie

I agree , they cant !

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

Katy-follower said:

I believe the flesh birth is when you are baptized by water immersion in the flesh by another man in the flesh. Just like Jesus and John.

This act of water immersion lowers you into a watery grave, and then you are lifted up out of the water and you are reborn or born again unto a new person in Christ. It fits nicely with the words of Christ, when he said his final words to his apostles to preach to all the world and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the HG.

To me, water baptism by immersion is "being born of the water".

Shamah · Apr 27, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 13:24-30, “Another parable He put before them, saying, “The reign of the heavens has become like a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) among the wheat and went away. And when the blade sprouted and bore fruit, then the darnel (tares) also appeared. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? From where then does it have the darnel (tares)?’ And he said to them, ‘A man, an enemy did this.’ And the servants said to him, ‘Do you wish then, that we go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the darnel (tares) you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I shall say to the reapers, “First gather the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.”[/FONT]

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

ljs said:

Works are the fruit of our salvation. What happens if the fruit does not appear? Will that be a wakeup call that you were never saved in the first place?

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

TruthTalk said:

So for the 'self righteous', their faith requires good works?

But for those that are not self righteous, their faith does not require good works?

Is that how it works?

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

Cee said:

Can you tell me what you think it means to 'know Him'?

Cee · Apr 27, 2018

benhur said:

That is a fair point, but I believe this points to our need for Holy Spirit. He is our great Teacher. I am left with the reminder that the Bible was written with intentionality. As such when there is a question or comment below a promise, insight, or command like this it is generally so the truth penetrates our heart deeper not our minds. There is a very real difference between the heart and mind. And in Scripture our “understanding” was revealed by our actions. It wasn’t simply a mental assent.

I could even say the idea that we have to figure out everything Scripture says and means so we can do what is right and avoid what is wrong is exactly the tree of knowledge if it’s used to replace relationship. The fall replaced “knowing” as in facts, figures, and laws instead of “knowing” which is intimate experiential relationship with a Person.

Adam walked in the cool of the day with his Father. It was a relationship of doing “life” together. And the fall from this, partly through the selfish desire of seeing what would “make one wise” was trying to live outside of relationship. And this is the heartbeat of religion. It comes from fear. Fear of being wrong, not being like God, not being able to trust His guiding hand. And as a result in an effort to gain control we turn to religion.

We see this in the Parable of the 2 sons. One sold all: rebellion. One left in heart: religion. Neither had joy in their Father’s house. Scripture is a beautiful invitation and diagnostic for what living with a good God looks like.

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

TruthTalk said:

I hope your dislike does not turn to 'hate' because you know what Jesus said to those that 'hate' their brother. Oh, but I guess it doesn't matter to you what Jesus said, since you are under grace.

BillG · Apr 27, 2018

benhur said:

Me too.

There are a few interpretations concerning this.

But I do have to say that I do not believe baptism saves.

But I will also say that the moment someone places faith in Jesus they should be baptised straight away.
To me it's a spiritual marker.
If they are willing to be baptised then to me it's a genuine confession of faith.

I think the problem today is that people are made to jump through hoops in order to be baptised.

From proving you are saved to having to give a great testimony.

But we find

Acts 8:34-39

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

No proving, no big testimony just believe in Jesus Christ is the son of God.

When people ask me to be baptised I ask them

Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Have time you done that and truly believe that?

If they say yes then I baptise them.

I have actually had a couple of people who could not say that. Asked them if they could so, can you confess that and they said no.

So I could not baptise them.

Also I do believe that discipleship is very important.
That is what Jesus commanded.

Magenta · Apr 27, 2018

benhur said:

Jesus related water to being the Holy Spirit of God. Multiple times

PS~ saying flesh birth is water baptism makes zero sense.

BillG · Apr 27, 2018

benhur said:

That's a bit harsh.

We are all under grace. You, me and TT

That we all must remember.

TT does not hate his brother and neither do you, neither do I or anyone else on this thread.

benhur · Apr 27, 2018

Cee said:

That is a fair point, but I believe this points to our need for Holy Spirit. He is our great Teacher. I am left with the reminder that the Bible was written with intentionality. As such when there is a question or comment below a promise, insight, or command like this it is generally so the truth penetrates our heart deeper not our minds. There is a very real difference between the heart and mind. And in Scripture our “understanding” was revealed by our actions. It wasn’t simply a mental assent.

I could even say the idea that we have to figure out everything Scripture says and means so we can do what is right and avoid what is wrong is exactly the tree of knowledge if it’s used to replace relationship. The fall replaced “knowing” as in facts, figures, and laws instead of “knowing” which is intimate experiential relationship with a Person.

Adam walked in the cool of the day with his Father. It was a relationship of doing “life” together. And the fall from this, partly through the selfish desire of seeing what would “make one wise” was trying to live outside of relationship. And this is the heartbeat of religion. It comes from fear. Fear of being wrong, not being like God, not being able to trust His guiding hand. And as a result in an effort to gain control we turn to religion.

We see this in the Parable of the 2 sons. One sold all: rebellion. One left in heart: religion. Neither had joy in their Father’s house. Scripture is a beautiful invitation and diagnostic for what living with a good God looks like.

Well thought out words, thank you.

It seems like between different teachers and pastors, the HG has a hard task to give us the truth of this passage in John. Christendom is divided about how to interpret this passage. What has the HG taught you about what it means to be 'born of the water'?

VCO · Apr 27, 2018

Katy-follower said:

John 3:1-7 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Verses 5 and 6 are especially LINKED, as well as everything else in the Conversation. People seem to forget, there were NO VERSE NUMBERS, prior to 1551 A.D. A man by the name of Stephen Langton in 1227 added the Chapters. Here is where that info comes from: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_273.cfm
The verses were not there in the original, and DO NOT SEPARATE ideas being conveyed through the normal Conversations. Therefore most of the Cults, and some of the real Christians actually believe that verse 5 is talking about Christian Water Baptism, when it is NOT. It compares the breaking of WATER at Natural Child Verse, and a SEPARATE birth of the Human Spirit into Eternal life. That happens the instant you genuinely Believe from the heart, repenting of sin, while you willingly out of LOVE for HIM, receive Jesus as LORD, meaning MASTER.

SO what all does the Holy Spirit do for you during the BORN AGAIN experience?

HE births the Human Spirit into ETERNAL LIFE:

John 3:6 (KJV) ". . . that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

HE brings Genuine Repentence for your Sinfulness:

Lamentations 1:16-22 (ESV) “For these things I weep; my eyes flow with tears; for a comforter is far from me, . . .

HE pours GOD's LOVE into our HEARTS:

Romans 5:5 (HCSB) "This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

HE puts manifests LOVE for GOD in us, by which we REALLY out of that LOVE RECEIVE Jesus Christ as LORD.

Romans 10:9 (HCSB) "If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." {NOTE: A true CONFESSION, has to be true about yourself, or it is only a PROFESSION, and Professing Jesus is the Lord will not save you, but genuinely repeating what HAPPENED in your heart, that JESUS IS MY LORD, will SAVE.}

HE begins to Teach us ALL THINGS?

John 14:26 (ASV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Comforter{Defense Attorney}, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

AND HE GIVES US SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND BEFORE?

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Seohce · Apr 27, 2018

dcontroversal said:

dcon said;

Take 1 second and actually think about and ponder what this thread is about.....serious.....it is about HOW ONE IS SAVED not WHAT THEY DO AFTER THEY ARE SAVED.....it IS FAITH ALONE THAT SAVES.....end of story........!

ElAmor said:

To get this over with, i want to ask dcon “HOW IS ONE SAVED"?

the bible tells us about it this way;

Romans 10:8-18 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH, “JESUS IS LORD,” AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And HOW CAN THEY BELIEVE in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

It is clear that PREACHING is a WORK necessary for one to BELIEVE and have FAITH and therefore be SAVED.

Another thing we need to notice is that WITH THE HEART WE BELIEVE AND ARE JUSTIFIED and WITH OUR MOUTH WE CONFESS AND ARE SAVED.

Believe and confess are two different words with different meaning, the same as justified and saved.

Romans 10 clearly proves that Salvation is not through Faith ALONE.

BELIEF,, CONFESSION, REPENTANCE, PREACHING, BAPTISM, OBEDIENCE , FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, WISDOM, HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS, GOOD WORKS, SERVICE, WORSHIP ETC. ARE ALL WORKS OF SALVATION THAT THE BODY OF CHRIST POSSESS AND DO FOR THE HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE OF GOD OUR FATHER AND HIS ONLY SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOR.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

IF ONE CLAIMS TO HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH, (gal 3:14) AND THEN SAY THAT HIS/HER FAITH ALONE SAVED HIM/HER AND THAT WITHOUT WORKS, DOESN’T HE/SHE REJECTS AND TRAMPLES UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND INSULTS THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

Hebrews 10:28-29 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

IF THE WORKS OF GOD WHO IS LOVE (1john 4:8 & 16) THE SON WHO IS TRUTH (john 14:6) AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS THE POWER (acts 1:8) HAVE NO POWER TO SAVE AND EVEN OBEDIENCE TO THESE WORKS IS REJECTED BY SAYING THAT FAITH “ALONE” SAVES VOID OF WORKS, ARE YOU NOT A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU?

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

I CAN CLAIM THAT I HAVE FAITH AND I AM SAVED FOREVER BUT WITHOUT “LOVE”, I AM NOTHING AND I AM NOT WORTHY OF GOD’S LOVE.

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.

EVEN DEVILS BELIEVE...

Not By Works

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