Not By Works

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wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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you can't do something for jesus/allah/or whoever you think is God and not have faith in your God its faith the reason why you do it in the first place
not really, people can follow God by belief in Him and produce works of there own(that mean nothing) but faith(something only Christians can produce) is brought about by the word of God manifested in them, its not them but the spirit bringing about faith in them. that inturn leads them to the good works and fruit of the spirit.
 
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not really, people can follow God by belief in Him and produce works of there own(that mean nothing) but faith(something only Christians can produce) is brought about by the word of God manifested in them, its not them but the spirit bringing about faith in them. that inturn leads them to the good works and fruit of the spirit.
wait ok I'm understanding now let's take a step back so what does follow jesus mean to you and why do you think that?
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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wait ok I'm understanding now let's take a step back so what does follow jesus mean to you and why do you think that?
following Christ means living by His word, believing in that word produces faith in me, that then produces that life change in me.
 
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what I'm understanding is that you are saying that if you pretend that you follow jesus you go to heaven but if you really follow jesus you go to hell....no brothers and sisters you got it backwards jesus exposes the false teachings
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I think where the confusion is that people think since we will never be perfect we shouldn't aim for it even though jesus tells us over and over to be perfect as our father is in heaven it's not about being perfect its about trying your hardest to do what jesus taught you and told you to do and never give up......its crazy we will never pay off our debts with the government but that doesn't seem to stop us from working for money every day of our lives so why not do it for jesus SINCE we have faith?
No the confusion is people think hey must work to earn or maintain salvation, and they think those who say no, we are saved by faith, just want to not work at wll, which is not true.

This thread is about the fact salvation is via grace through faith apart from works. (Justification) It is not about what we do or should do or what we look like (sanctification)
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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what I'm understanding is that you are saying that if you pretend that you follow jesus you go to heaven but if you really follow jesus you go to hell....no brothers and sisters you got it backwards jesus exposes the false teachings
nope othere way around. the devils believe in Christ, they might even look like His angles but their not. same with people, the my believe in God, they may even work an look like good people. but without faith, with out that true relationship with the word of God and the Lord Himself, there is nothing there. these are the people that flee on the first sign of persecution.
 
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following Christ means living by His word, believing in that word produces faith in me, that then produces that life change in me.
ok so if you live by the word of God( which is jesus by the way and not the bible) it means you are not doing what jesus told you to do but doing what everyone and everything else tells you to do example teachers ,religious leaders, government ,family ,boss at work....you do know jesus taught us everything we needed to know when he came to earth for us to do right and he didn't just teach us all that for us not to do
 
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nope othere way around. the devils believe in Christ, they might even look like His angles but their not. same with people, the my believe in God, they may even work an look like good people. but without faith, with out that true relationship with the word of God and the Lord Himself, there is nothing there. these are the people that flee on the first sign of persecution.
if someone is doing THE teachings of jesus they are not from the devil trust me the devil doesn't want you to do as jesus commanded us to do but if someone is doing teachings of men and glorifying them and themselves and tell you no don't do what jesus says then guess what?
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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ok so if you live by the word of God( which is jesus by the way and not the bible) it means you are not doing what jesus told you to do but doing what everyone and everything else tells you to do example teachers ,religious leaders, government ,family ,boss at work....you do know jesus taught us everything we needed to know when he came to earth for us to do right and he didn't just teach us all that for us not to do
the bible(word of God) is a book that is discerned spiritually, that's what produces faith in you, the only way to please God. that is following Jesus Christ, anything else is sin. brother apart from the spirit in you and the works of faith there is absolutely nothing good you can do.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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if someone is doing THE teachings of jesus they are not from the devil trust me the devil doesn't want you to do as jesus commanded us to do but if someone is doing teachings of men and glorifying them and themselves and tell you no don't do what jesus says then guess what?
its an example not exact. but someone can read the words and do it on there own right, but that is not pleasing to God. but by faith you don't do the word you have it birthed in you and the works become part of your very nature, to the point that you couldn't not do them if you tried.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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so you said he walked the path and that he said for us to walk this path.....ok so now define "walk this path"
Walk= Greek "peripateo" = To tread all around, walk at large (esp as proof of ability) to live, deport oneself, follow (as a companion or votery = A person who is fervently devoted, as to a leader or ideal; a faithful follower. ) go, be occupied, walk.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The Bible says Jesus is the Word which became Flesh. He created all things including His instructions, Word's, Commandments, Sayings, as He said it, "EVERY Word" which proceeds from the mouth of God, (The Word which became Flesh)

He says He gives us a choice.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Word which became Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

He said again later on.

16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.


And again after the Word became Flesh.

Matt. 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

He was asked once; 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him,
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I believe He was speaking to the 10 Commandments and to His instructions given to His people (Not the Levites) in Leviticus and defined throughout the Law and the Prophets.

He didn't name them all like "Love the Lord your God with all your might" or "17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart."

But I believe it was implied.

And again:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (Word which became Flesh) hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

He warns of religious folks telling me I can't "Walk as He Walked" in examples of the OT.

Num. 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.

And again;

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And again;

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Since I have already fallen trying to earn salvation by following my way, or the Word's of religious man and their religious traditions, I have chosen to trust Jesus, and deny myself and rely on the Word's, Sayings, Commandments, created by the Word which became Flesh for me to walk in.

There are "MANY" who come in Christ's name, who say if I trust Him enough to so as He says, if I follow His instructions over the traditions of men, that I am trying to earn Salvation by my works.

But Jesus already warned me of these people so if I "take Heed" to the warnings like the following, I should be able to "Endure" to the end.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

And again;

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

If you are on this forum I think I can assume you already know what the Word which Became Flesh instructed, how He defines love. How He defines "faith".

all you need to do is believe in Him and he will show you the Path as He did for me.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I believe the overarching focus on the NT Scripture is about being in Christ. There are over 50 forms of “in Christ” Scriptures. When I was younger I would read those over and over, but hear very little teaching about what in Christ was. I realized that it wasn’t connecting to my heart because I didn’t have a picture for it. So I prayed for Holy Spirit to teach me. And He showed me that a person is in Adam or they are in Christ. Being in Christ is the doorway to peace with God. And in Him we live, move, and have our being. This is why Paul was able to say he was crucified to the world, dead to sin, and knew no one by the flesh. The water baptism is our picture of this, first remember that John was baptizing with water before Jesus came. John was preparing the way of the Lord. Water baptism is a sign of dying and being reborn IN Christ. It is a public witness of an inner work. When the Spirit first fell upon the Gentiles, Paul had them next be baptized in water, to me this shows it is not required for salvation, but its our honor to follow Him in this. However, this is not a one time event, but the invitation of a life style, a continual renewing (this is a baptism word) of the mind. It is continually dying to ways that were formed in us apart from Christ and growing in Christ and uniting with His mind, Holy Spirit. As His Body on Earth, we are called to be one, jointly lead by one Lord. He is our Head. :)

I think he was asking about this verse:

John 3:5-7 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'


Lots of the Cults, and a few real Christians want to say that their denomination's "Christian Water Baptism" is part of SALVATION. Yes we are to be Walking Like Christ after we are SAVED, and one of the first steps we take, of obedience is to submit to Christian Water Baptism. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT JOHN IS TALKING ABOUT IN VERSE FIVE. He is comparing you have to be BORN PHYSICALLY and later SPIRITUALLY, when the Holy Spirit births you human spirit to Eternal Life. HE did not change subjects between verse 5 and 6. HE is talking about all of the SAME THING in verse 5 and 6. It was a normal conversation, and the verses were not inserted until 1551, and in normal conversation you do not change subjects in the middle of two sentences. In other words it is talking about the breaking of water during natural Child Birth, and later the Spirit gives birth to the human spirit.

Just for Example: The Mormons because of the misinterpretation of that verse, even get baptized for the DEAD, because they think they are saving the whole world by doing that for anyone who has not accepted Mormonism. They are SAVING nobody, including themselves, because it is LITERALLY A MISINTERPRETATION, that cannot Save.

The IMMERSION THAT SAVES, is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into the spiritual body of Christ:


1 Corinthians 12:12-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] So the body is not one part but many.
The Spiritual Body of Christ, of which HE is head, is made up of all true Believers of all time. WE WERE ALL IMMERSED into that Body, by the HOLY SPIRIT, including the THIEF ON THE CROSS.
 
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there is so much to explain brothers and sisters but I encourage you to read the new testament and take god's guidance the whole way and please don't read it with anyone who wants to teach you because there already is a teacher and he is jesus you would be amazed as I was as who jesus really is and what he has told his followers to do is nothing easy and nothing you hear in church yes ofcourse ask for help but wouldn't you want God to help you instead of anyone else....I don't wish to continue because I'm going to irritate people and that is not what I wish to do....there is so many people out there suffering because they are lost, and if one is lost we are all lost and if one is hurt we are all hurting please stay away from media famous religious leaders and their teachings and anyone who teaches their teachings just stick to what jesus teaches you.... everything is corrupted and it seems worse every day wish we can get together in person and learn from God but ofcourse the devil will have his way but not for long pray.pray.fast.fast.believe and follow christ because people (we need each other) not just Christians but everyone needs each other much love and prayers to you all
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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yes, that is exactly what Paul said- grace, faith , works. God called Abram, no record of Abram seeking Yahway, ( grace ), Abram believed Him, ( faith ), Abram went, and circumcised himself and the other men ( works ).

but, as always, God intervenes on us, God saves us, we do not earn or deserve it.
Well the text clearly says he was blessed "BECAUSE" he obeyed. I don't think we should imply something as fact, when the text is clear. Abraham was blessed "Because" he trusted the Word which became Flesh enough to do what He instructed Abraham to do.

At least it looks that way to me.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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there is so much to explain brothers and sisters but I encourage you to read the new testament and take god's guidance the whole way and please don't read it with anyone who wants to teach you because there already is a teacher and he is jesus you would be amazed as I was as who jesus really is and what he has told his followers to do is nothing easy and nothing you hear in church yes ofcourse ask for help but wouldn't you want God to help you instead of anyone else....I don't wish to continue because I'm going to irritate people and that is not what I wish to do....there is so many people out there suffering because they are lost, and if one is lost we are all lost and if one is hurt we are all hurting please stay away from media famous religious leaders and their teachings and anyone who teaches their teachings just stick to what jesus teaches you.... everything is corrupted and it seems worse every day wish we can get together in person and learn from God but ofcourse the devil will have his way but not for long pray.pray.fast.fast.believe and follow christ because people (we need each other) not just Christians but everyone needs each other much love and prayers to you all
1.) isolation is a tool of the devil, it'll get you caught up in some bad teaching of your own mind quick.

2.) the purpose of other believers and the Word is to correct any wrong thinking you may pick up, think of it like hey your car is making a funny noise, you should get it checked out. don't just keep driving...

3.) leaders are set by God, not all but most. and it is their job to correct and teach by His will, don't forsake that brother.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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that verse is more talking about those who did works but never sought out that true personal relationship with Christ, they worked in the shadow of His name only but didn't try or look to walking with Him in spirit.

you could say its both though, obedience is not giving into the will of the flesh the other is doing the good works of the spirit, but both in the end are brought about by faith.
I worry about this doctrine. If I have been convinced that God's Spirit is in me so every religious tradition and action of religious man "must" be Christ inspired. Isn't that the same thing that happened to the mainstream preachers of Christ's time?

"God is our Father" they said, but they were deceived. I could ask the question "How can I know if I, or a preacher is Christ inspired?" But the Word which became Flesh gave me the answer to this question as well if I can accept it.

Is. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

and again;

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth (Light) is not in him.

If I use this standard given me by the Word which became Flesh, it surely brings light to His Words;

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 
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1)no brother I said don't read it with someone wanting to teach you but read it with someone wanting to learn someone who humbles themselves as they don't know it all

2)yes brother you are correct get your car checked out but by THE mechanic (jesus) because maybe your car isn't the one making a funny noise but everyone else's car around you isn't working properly

3)jesus says there is only one teacher only one father...and if leaders want to lead they must learn to follow first and that is THE christ and everything he stands for and I'm sorry but I haven't seen or heard of many true leaders so your safest bet is jesus which is the word of God
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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1)no brother I said don't read it with someone wanting to teach you but read it with someone wanting to learn someone who humbles themselves as they don't know it all
one of the spiritual gifts is teaching, the spirit of God has anointed people to teach you, His word clearly says this.

2)yes brother you are correct get your car checked out but by THE mechanic (jesus) because maybe your car isn't the one making a funny noise but everyone else's car around you isn't working properly
yeah Jesus owns the shope but He still has employees He trains and gives the tools to fix you, and 9/10 times its our car making the noise we just have gotten to used to it.

3)jesus says there is only one teacher only one father...and if leaders want to lead they must learn to follow first and that is THE christ and everything he stands for and I'm sorry but I haven't seen or heard of many true leaders so your safest bet is jesus which is the word of God
yeah He did say that and then He put His Spirit in us, to teach eachother.