Not By Works

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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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But the part with:
a) rose again in the flesh
b) seen by others in the flesh
c) seated next to the Father in the flesh

is a different kind of flesh than in the first part of your sentence, right? A spiritual flesh, i.e. not biological, not "fleshy" as ours.
Yep I get that.
After all how could he be with them one minute and not the next?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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The article you quote days this "
Later in the same chapter of Luke, Christ makes it plain to His disciples that He does have a physical body; He is not a disembodied spirit: “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). After spending forty days with His disciples, Jesus ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9). Jesus is still human, and He has a human body in heaven right now."

Yet your words imply that you are against teaching that Jesus had a flesh and bone body in Heaven.

Your words "I am not aware of that group that would think to teach Jesus is flesh and bone in Heaven. "

Which is it that you believe?

Jesus had a body in Heaven or is he just Spirit?
Yes Jesus has a body not just a "disembodied spirit" in heaven and once more when Jesus returns for His Bride He will also have a body. Jesus is not a spirit being and how foolish to think of such a thing.

Hebrews1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
1John1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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That's a no then?

1 John 4:1-3
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

4:2 By this you know: One test of whether a person is led by the Holy Spirit is whether that person’s beliefs agree with the truth of God’s Word (see 2:22; 1 Cor. 12:3). Jesus Christ has come in the flesh: This test seems to be aimed at Docetists. They taught that Christ did not have a physical body. The test may also be aimed at the followers of Cerinthus who claimed that Jesus and “the Christ” were two separate beings, one physical and the other spiritual. In this letter, John is careful to use the name and title of Jesus Christ together to clearly express the complete union of the two titles in one person.
4:3 Cerinthus, a false teacher of John’s day, denied the Incarnation by teaching that the divine Christ descended on the human Jesus at His baptism and then departed before His crucifixion (2:22). John teaches that Jesus did not merely enter into an already existing human being, but He came as a human being. The Greek tense of the verb has come and the meaning of the noun flesh indicate that not only did Jesus come as a human being, He was still a human being even as John wrote. God the Son is forever fully God and fully man. He is immortal and has received a resurrected human body that does not age or die. A denial of Jesus’ full and true humanity proves that a teacher is not of God.

2 John 1:7-8

Beware of Antichrist Deceivers
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
I'm sorry for you BillG, it appears that AngelFrog has falsely accused you as she did me a few post's back. I wish there was something I could do to stop this craziness.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Romans 12:1,2
1)
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

You said that correctly, "our bodies" it is not an individual offering but together as brother and sisters we offer our bodies "holy and pleasing to God."

A sacrifice is normally given to an altar for a deity. But a living sacrifice to God to me means to continuously offer our worship because of our love for our Heavenly Father.

"What does that mean? I believe it means to use our spiritual gifts together as we worship the Lord. As it says in the following verses of Romans 12:6-8.

Romans12:6-8
6)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith;
7) if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach;
8) if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
To give our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God is to serve, encourage, give, lead, show mercy, etc., etc., etc., are manifestations of good works.
So our living sacrifice is to do good works. We keep our eye on the cross, we trust Jesus and have faith in his grace and with that faith we do the good works of serving encouraging, giving, leading, and give mercy/forgive. Our bodily sacrifice is to give our bodies to good works.
As James says, pure religion, which is undefiled before God, is good works. (James 1:27)

Your Romans 12:6-8 is a good scripture to prove how important good works are in our salvation process.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Think about the family of noah being in the ark.

God put them in, He sealed them in, and they where sealed in until they reached the other side.

I am in christ, God sealed me in, And I will be in until I am on the other side (heaven)

And it is the opposite of being in adam. In Adam all die, In christ all will be made alive.

it is called being born again, baptized into Christ (not water) where he is the head..

If I sit here long enough, I can find many other examples of what it means.
Thats all good, but at least 1 of these sealed up people were cursed of God (Ham) and lost his salvation. So not a particularly good analogy.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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To give our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God is to serve, encourage, give, lead, show mercy, etc., etc., etc., are manifestations of good works.
So our living sacrifice is to do good works. We keep our eye on the cross, we trust Jesus and have faith in his grace and with that faith we do the good works of serving encouraging, giving, leading, and give mercy/forgive. Our bodily sacrifice is to give our bodies to good works.
As James says, pure religion, which is undefiled before God, is good works. (James 1:27)

Your Romans 12:6-8 is a good scripture to prove how important good works are in our salvation process.
Yes so you kind of answered your own question and salvation happens when you are born again, sanctification and the pursuit of holy living is a process. Saying salvation is a process makes me believe you think it is possible to "lose your salvation", I believe eternal salvation is eternal and cannot be lost.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Yes so you kind of answered your own question and salvation happens when you are born again, sanctification and the pursuit of holy living is a process. Saying salvation is a process makes me believe you think it is possible to "lose your salvation", I believe eternal salvation is eternal and cannot be lost.
Some people don't believe salvation happens until death...only then can you know if you are eternally saved

Others you are saved but it's not eternal and can be lost,
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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Forgive her?

And pray.
Absolutely forgive pray and move on. I believe she has unresolved anger problems just from how she over reacts to anyone who disagrees with her. That we disagree within an issue does not equal "hatred"
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Thats all good, but at least 1 of these sealed up people were cursed of God (Ham) and lost his salvation. So not a particularly good analogy.

Well, It is a perfect analogy, Because of the symbol of the ark. And who said Ham was ever saved to begin with?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Exactly what it says. Believe and Follow. However, there is no such thing as losing our salvation each and every time we make a mistake. That is not sustained by scripture and in fact revokes the message of the cross.
I'm wondering if you are called JLB at a different site?
Christians know what it means to be saved. Losing it many times a day and having to recapture it through repentance is not Christianity. It is the antithesis of Christianity and I do not follow nor respect that. No Christian does.
Do you think I believe that you can lose your salvation each and every time we make a mistake? Hello, anybody home?

Have you ever heard of the word 'repentance'. I know you do not use it much in your circle of friends, because why repent, if Jesus automatically wipes away my sins, every time I sin, it is automatically wiped away. There would be no real reason to feel sorry, and make good for what you have done wrong. Boy, that would be a bother. I don't like the conotation that I would have to lift a finger, and go through the process of repenting. I like the idea that all I have to do is look to Jesus and I trust him to make it all right.

So go read about what Jesus has to say about repentance. Actually, his first words as he started his ministry. Repent, for the KOH is at hand. Do you know what the word 'repentance' means?

To follow Jesus means to act like him. Do the things that he did. On occasion you slip off the wagon, but through the 'repentance' process you find that Jesus will forgive you and make you right with God again, and you continue. To follow him and to act like him is to be engaged in good works, the same kind of works that he did during his ministry.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Some people don't believe salvation happens until death...only then can you know if you are eternally saved

Others you are saved but it's not eternal and can be lost,
Yes I am aware of these different thoughts about salvation, thanks for reminding me. The first must be a Catholic reasoning and the second a grace plus works salvation so as to maintain your eternal salvation.

I believe in the eternal security of the believer, if someone wants to worry about their salvation until the day they die, up to them. It does not mean they are not saved, it means they are lacking assurance.

2Corinthians:5:8
"we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

God bless!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,497
3,851
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To give our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God is to serve, encourage, give, lead, show mercy, etc., etc., etc., are manifestations of good works.
So our living sacrifice is to do good works. We keep our eye on the cross, we trust Jesus and have faith in his grace and with that faith we do the good works of serving encouraging, giving, leading, and give mercy/forgive. Our bodily sacrifice is to give our bodies to good works.
As James says, pure religion, which is undefiled before God, is good works. (James 1:27)
Your Romans 12:6-8 is a good scripture to prove how important good works are in our salvation process.
And Rightfully so, but remember IT IS NOT PART OF SALVATION, which is a Finished work of Jesus Christ, Phil. 1:6. AND it spawns out of GOD's LOVE that HE told the Holy Spirit to pour it INTO OUR HEARTS, Rom.5:5. What is Sad, is we have some here, that insists that it is our part of Salvation, or that you are NOT SAVED until your works are done. No, it is NOT part of SALVATION, but IT is part of our LOVE FOR GOD, and for our brethren, 1 John 3:14-19.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Well, It is a perfect analogy, Because of the symbol of the ark. And who said Ham was ever saved to begin with?
Oh, I don't know, let's look at a couple of possibilities that he was saved.
1) he was the son of a very important prophet
2) he followed his father and did as his father requested to help build the boat
3) he was 1 of only 8 people in the world to be saved by the arch.

I would say he was saved, in more ways than 1. I would not be surprized to learn that during the boat making years, he met Jehovah/Jesus personally.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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And Rightfully so, but remember IT IS NOT PART OF SALVATION, which is a Finished work of Jesus Christ, Phil. 1:6. AND it spawns out of GOD's LOVE that HE told the Holy Spirit to pour it INTO OUR HEARTS, Rom.5:5. What is Sad, is we have some here, that insists that it is our part of Salvation, or that you are NOT SAVED until your works are done. No, it is NOT part of SALVATION, but IT is part of our LOVE FOR GOD, and for our brethren, 1 John 3:14-19.
You always have to remember that if you have a mind that good works is a burden, and you do not have time for it, and you just can't be bothered etc., then maybe your new person in Christ, the one that loves to do the works of Christ, and follow him, was not instigated in the beginning.

It's just a maybe, but maybe if you have these thoughts, you were not really saved to start with?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Oh, I don't know, let's look at a couple of possibilities that he was saved.
1) he was the son of a very important prophet
2) he followed his father and did as his father requested to help build the boat
3) he was 1 of only 8 people in the world to be saved by the arch.

I would say he was saved, in more ways than 1. I would not be surprized to learn that during the boat making years, he met Jehovah/Jesus personally.
He was physically saved from the flood, that in no way proves he was spiritually saved and headed to heaven.
What does any of that have to do with the symbology of the ark?


None, but thats for trying to take an OT symbol of a spiritual fact and trying to twist it to support your theory of a works based gospel.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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He was physically saved from the flood, that in no way proves he was spiritually saved and headed to heaven.
What does any of that have to do with the symbology of the ark?


None, but thats for trying to take an OT symbol of a spiritual fact and trying to twist it to support your theory of a works based gospel.
I should not even have posted a response to your post. No need to argue this subject. So you can have the last word, and I will not respond to this particular subject again.