Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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We do not do good works to be in the vine, we do good works because we are in the vine.

Ps what about the sheep that go astray?
Jesus goes after it but I can't recall him seeking out the goats.

Why is that?
You are correct. the parable proves that there are those on the vine who do not do good works that produces good fruit. It is a parable to prove that ET is not true.

In the parable of the vine, the 'branches IN HIM' (which means they are saved branches' can be taken away if they do not produce fruit (no fruit is produced if you do not work at it. So do good works = fruit).

We who are saved, are branches on the vine and in order to produce good fruit we take our instruction from the vine (Jesus) and we do what is necessary to produce good fruit (good works). If we do not do those things that we were saved unto, then we will be take away by the husbandman (God the Father).
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Did you not choose Jesus?
John 15:16-17
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

You?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You are correct. the parable proves that there are those on the vine who do not do good works that produces good fruit. It is a parable to prove that ET is not true.

In the parable of the vine, the 'branches IN HIM' (which means they are saved branches' can be taken away if they do not produce fruit (no fruit is produced if you do not work at it. So do good works = fruit).

We who are saved, are branches on the vine and in order to produce good fruit we take our instruction from the vine (Jesus) and we do what is necessary to produce good fruit (good works). If we do not do those things that we were saved unto, then we will be take away by the husbandman (God the Father).
What is ET?

Extra terrestrial?
Phone home and all that
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Did Nicolas have a great testimony?
I wasn't saying he was a Jew, but as a proselyte given the biblical term then it's possible he converted to Judaism and not Christianity, maybe in voice only.

noun
  1. a person newly converted to a religious faith or sect; a convert, esp a gentile converted to Judaism
He had to be newly converted to Christianity, and yes he had to have a great testimony of Jesus in order to have been chosen to assist the Christian apostles.

He was one of the best the Christians had to look to and Jesus told the apostles through revelation that Nicolas was to be one of the 7. Jesus chose Nicolas, just like Jesus chose the 12 and then chose Matthias to take Judas' place. Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the foundation of the church and was giving revelation to the other part of the foundation of the church, the apostles.

So you can rest assured that this man was saved at the moment he was ordained to be one of the 7.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You are correct. the parable proves that there are those on the vine who do not do good works that produces good fruit. It is a parable to prove that ET is not true.

In the parable of the vine, the 'branches IN HIM' (which means they are saved branches' can be taken away if they do not produce fruit (no fruit is produced if you do not work at it. So do good works = fruit).

We who are saved, are branches on the vine and in order to produce good fruit we take our instruction from the vine (Jesus) and we do what is necessary to produce good fruit (good works). If we do not do those things that we were saved unto, then we will be take away by the husbandman (God the Father).
What you need to bear in mind is that if memory serves me you said Judas was a branch and that non believers can be a branch.

When you said this I mentioned wheat and tares.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Appearance can be deceptive.
One has to ask the question "Did they always get it right?

Acts 15:25-29
25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.Farewell.

Acts 15:29
29 You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.”

1 Corinthians 8:4-13
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
You would have to ask this question: does Jesus always get it right?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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He had to be newly converted to Christianity, and yes he had to have a great testimony of Jesus in order to have been chosen to assist the Christian apostles.

He was one of the best the Christians had to look to and Jesus told the apostles through revelation that Nicolas was to be one of the 7. Jesus chose Nicolas, just like Jesus chose the 12 and then chose Matthias to take Judas' place. Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the foundation of the church and was giving revelation to the other part of the foundation of the church, the apostles.

So you can rest assured that this man was saved at the moment he was ordained to be one of the 7.
Show me where it says Jesus chose Nicolas, show me where he had a great testimony.
Why is Nicolas called a proselyte and none of the others.
Jesus called Paul, was he a proselyte?

Why did Jesus call Nicolas only then to say he hates him and his deeds and his sect
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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What you need to bear in mind is that if memory serves me you said Judas was a branch and that non believers can be a branch.

When you said this I mentioned wheat and tares.
I did say he was a branch, but I did not say the he was a 'branch IN HIM'.

There is a difference in a regular branch that eventually spins out of control because they will not receive instructions from the vine. They whither and die.

A branch IN HIM, means they were receiving instructions from the vine and therefore were supposed to be delivering good fruit. some of these 'branches IN HIM were not producing even though they were receiving instructions. These saved branches, not producing fruit were taken away and burnt. AND those that were producing some fruit were purged so that they would produce more fruit.

IOW it is not easy to be a true follower of Jesus Christ.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You would have to ask this question: does Jesus always get it right?
Do not deflect, you are good at doing that.
You answer questions with another question but never answer the question.

Is it ok to eat food sacrificed to idols?

Peter thought not and sent those chosen by God to tell the gentiles not to do it.
Yet then we find Paul saying "Its not an issue if it's ok for you, but if causes a weaker brother a problem then do not do it in front of [email protected]
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,249
3,988
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I did say he was a branch, but I did not say the he was a 'branch IN HIM'.

There is a difference in a regular branch that eventually spins out of control because they will not receive instructions from the vine. They whither and die.

A branch IN HIM, means they were receiving instructions from the vine and therefore were supposed to be delivering good fruit. some of these 'branches IN HIM were not producing even though they were receiving instructions. These saved branches, not producing fruit were taken away and burnt. AND those that were producing some fruit were purged so that they would produce more fruit.

IOW it is not easy to be a true follower of Jesus Christ.
Tosh pure tosh.
You said he was a branch, if he is a branch he is attached to the vine.

If a branch withers it's not because they are not getting nutrition from the vine it's because they are not in the vine, therefore not a branch

Judas was not a believer and was never in the vine.
Neither are those who pay lip service and come across as believers
 
May 20, 2018
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Thats only 1 thing the bible says about believers turning into unbelievers. Look up who the Nicolaitans were and why Jesus hated them.

They were followers of Nicolas, who it is believed to be one of the 7 deacons chosen to help relieve some of the burdens that were crushing the apostles. Stephen, the first martyr was one of these men. So believe me or not, these 7 were saved men in the KOG, yet one of them became so apostate that he and his followers were hated of Jesus. I would also say that if they were loved by Jesus at one time, and later hated by Jesus, it proves you can lose your eternal life.

IOW ES is a false doctrine.

They went out from us but we're not of us to me says they were not saved to begin with. Another misunderstood example is Galatians chapter 6. FoMany people think that a suicide attempt is a selfish move because the person just does not care about the people left behind. I can tell you that when a person gets to that point, they truly believe that their loved ones will be much better off with them gone.This is mental illness not selfishness. TRUTH: Depression is a terrible disease and seems relentless. A lot of us have been close to that edge, or dealt with family members in a crisis, and some have lost friends and loved ones. Let's look out for each other and stop sweeping mental illness under the rug. If I don't see your name, I'll understand. May I ask my family and friends wherever you might be, to kindly copy and paste this status for one hour to give a moment of support to all those who have family problems, health struggles, job issues, worries of any kind and just need to know that someone cares. Do it for all of us, for nobody is immune. Hope to see this on the walls of all my family and friends just for moral support. I know some will!!! I did it for a friend and you can too. You have to copy and paste this one, no sharing. Than
Except for the fact that MANY are CALLED but few CHOSEN.............one is only rejected when they reject....so...........

One who is truly saved is unable to reject. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. The ones who fall away never possessed true saving faith. For many will say to me at the last day, Lord, Lord...and I will profess to them get sway from me, I NEVER knew you
If your faith does not proceed from the spirit of God, then it is not true saving faith. It will not be recognized because the spirit of God fills chasm between our sinful nature and God's holiness. If it's possible to lose our salvation due to human error, then Christ died in vain. If I am able to disbelieve for any circumstances just as I was able to believe through circumstance then there was nothing defeated by the cross. The death and resurrection of Christ was carried no power.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Show me where it says Jesus chose Nicolas, show me where he had a great testimony.
Why is Nicolas called a proselyte and none of the others.
Jesus called Paul, was he a proselyte?

Why did Jesus call Nicolas only then to say he hates him and his deeds and his sect
You seem to be obsessed with the word 'proselyte'. Nicolas may have been the only proselyte among the 7.
So What? Nicolas was a proselyte from Antioch, so what? A proselyte just means he was a rather new convert to Christianity, so what?

The apostles told the people to choose 7 men from among them. The people chose the 7. But then the apostles prayed. This is where Jesus gave them permission to choose these 7 men to this important calling.

We know that Jesus gave permission because they immediately went forth and took each man and layed their hands on his head and ordained him to this calling.
Read Acts 6:1-6 especially vs 6.

Paul was a proselyte for a season after he was baptized. The bible does not say this, but the definition holds true for all members who heard the gospel from a Christian in the church and got baptized into the Christian church, not the Jewish church.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Tosh pure tosh.
You said he was a branch, if he is a branch he is attached to the vine.

If a branch withers it's not because they are not getting nutrition from the vine it's because they are not in the vine, therefore not a branch

Judas was not a believer and was never in the vine.
Neither are those who pay lip service and come across as believers
Think what you will.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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God demands you be perfect,

Good luck trying to fulfill that demand.
God does not demand perfection. But he demands fruit. If you do not produce fruit you will be cut off. If you produce little fruit, you will be purged so as to produce more fruit.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
They went out from us but we're not of us to me says they were not saved to begin with. Another misunderstood example is Galatians chapter 6. FoMany people think that a suicide attempt is a selfish move because the person just does not care about the people left behind. I can tell you that when a person gets to that point, they truly believe that their loved ones will be much better off with them gone.This is mental illness not selfishness. TRUTH: Depression is a terrible disease and seems relentless. A lot of us have been close to that edge, or dealt with family members in a crisis, and some have lost friends and loved ones. Let's look out for each other and stop sweeping mental illness under the rug. If I don't see your name, I'll understand. May I ask my family and friends wherever you might be, to kindly copy and paste this status for one hour to give a moment of support to all those who have family problems, health struggles, job issues, worries of any kind and just need to know that someone cares. Do it for all of us, for nobody is immune. Hope to see this on the walls of all my family and friends just for moral support. I know some will!!! I did it for a friend and you can too. You have to copy and paste this one, no sharing. Than



One who is truly saved is unable to reject. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. The ones who fall away never possessed true saving faith. For many will say to me at the last day, Lord, Lord...and I will profess to them get sway from me, I NEVER knew you
If your faith does not proceed from the spirit of God, then it is not true saving faith. It will not be recognized because the spirit of God fills chasm between our sinful nature and God's holiness. If it's possible to lose our salvation due to human error, then Christ died in vain. If I am able to disbelieve for any circumstances just as I was able to believe through circumstance then there was nothing defeated by the cross. The death and resurrection of Christ was carried no power.
I believe many examples in the bible stress that saved people went out and did such atrocious deeds that Jesus even says in the bible that he hates them. You can say all day that they weren't really saved, but nobody can say for sure. I say they were, you say they were not.

I say that one who has true faith will also have accompanying good woks as evidence of their true faith. One who does not, but says they have true faith is just kidding themselves.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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<><.🕇.><>

BAPTIST BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
. . . There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace. . . .

EVANGELICAL FREE CHURCH OF AMERICA BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
That the shed blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection provide the only ground for justification and salvation for all who believe, and only such as receive Jesus Christ are born of the Holy Spirit, and thus become children of God.

GRACE BRETHREN BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
A complete and eternal salvation by God's grace alone, received as the gift of God through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work.

COMMUNITY CHURCHES BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
We believe salvation is the gift of God’s grace given to all whom God has elected to salvation. It includes all that God does in saving the elect from the penalty, power, and presence of sin and in restoring them to a right relationship with God. As such, it is solely the work of God from initiation to completion. It cannot be gained by good works, but is a free gift for all who put their trust in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.

BIBLE CHURCHES BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
Man is sinful and separated from God, and a reunion, called salvation, is possible only by faith in Jesus Christ, apart from works, through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

ASSEMBLY OF GOD BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
We believe man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

PENTECOSTAL CHURCH BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
Everyone has sinned and needs salvation. Salvation comes by grace through faith based on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

WESLEYAN CHURCH BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
We believe that for men and women to appropriate what God’s prevenient grace has made possible, they must voluntarily respond in repentance and faith. The ability comes from God, but the act is the individual’s.
. . .
We believe that when one repents of personal sin and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, that at the same moment that person is justified, regenerated, adopted into the family of God, and assured of personal salvation through the witness of the Holy Spirit.

We believe that justification is the judicial act of God whereby a person is accounted righteous, granted full pardon of all sin, delivered from guilt, completely released from the penalty of sins committed, by the merit of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, by faith alone, not on the basis of works.

MESSIANIC JEWISH CHURCHES BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
Our only hope for redemption (salvation) is through the atonement made by the Messiah (Leviticus 17:11; Isaiah 53; Daniel 9:24-26; I Corinthians 15:22; Hebrews 9:11-14, 28; John 1:12, 3:36), resulting in regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5), which is the new birth (John 3:3-8). For by grace we are saved through faith, it is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9).


I could go on, and on, but NOTHING SEEMS TO MATCH what you say about SALVATION.
Okay, only one more:


LUTHERAN BRETHREN CHURCH BELIEFS ABOUT SALVATION:
Eternal salvation is available to every living human being on earth
by God’s grace alone
through faith alone

in Christ alone.
This salvation consists of an instantaneous aspect and an ongoing, continual aspect.
  1. Justification is God’s gracious act by which He, for Christ’s sake, instantaneously acquits repentant and believing sinners and credits them with Christ’s righteousness. At that moment, God gives each one who believes a new and godly nature and the Holy Spirit begins the process of sanctification. There is no place for human effort in justification.
You quote 10 of 3000 Christian churches, and you figure you've proved something?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,249
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You seem to be obsessed with the word 'proselyte'. Nicolas may have been the only proselyte among the 7.
So What? Nicolas was a proselyte from Antioch, so what? A proselyte just means he was a rather new convert to Christianity, so what?

The apostles told the people to choose 7 men from among them. The people chose the 7. But then the apostles prayed. This is where Jesus gave them permission to choose these 7 men to this important calling.

We know that Jesus gave permission because they immediately went forth and took each man and layed their hands on his head and ordained him to this calling.
Read Acts 6:1-6 especially vs 6.

Paul was a proselyte for a season after he was baptized. The bible does not say this, but the definition holds true for all members who heard the gospel from a Christian in the church and got baptized into the Christian church, not the Jewish church.
And you seem to obsessed to neglect it's true meaning in Acts

So why would Jesus choose him knowing that he would form a false sect with a view to lead people astray, to destruction and say "I hate his deeds, just as you do"

It does not make sense to me that Jesus would affirm a person to appoint them to destroy or try to destroy his church.

Does Jesus do that?

So Jesus according to you has given 7 men to oversee his church, one of which whose purpose was to destroy it (bear in mind he is omniscient) so knows all that is going to happen.

I don't think Jesus calls such a person.
But it seems you do.

Revelation 2:13
13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

At least the above held fast to his name.

Unlike those John talks about. Those who were not part of them, never knew Jesus.
Did Jesus put them there as well?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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1. belief in Jesus is a response to hearing the truth and accepting it

no i did not "CHOOSE" to believe it when i heard it

i tried to reject it ... i even posted this in my testimony when i was still a sinless perfectionist maybe a year ago
(you can still look this up)
but i couldnt turn away from the truth after i was called


2. i believe YOU ignore many verses to keep your head canon alive
Whoever got you to Jesus, I am glad you are there.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Of course the translations lose something (many things) in translation and exactly why one must look to the inspired languages (Greek and Hebrew) to fully grasp the nuances found in said languages....the definite article translated "the" is often left out of the modern English translations because we do not speak like that....The bible points to THE one and ONLY PARTICULAR JESUS that saves men by faith....there is not 2, 3, 4 or more gospels of salvation. There is but ONE biblical DOOR into the kingdom and the bible emphatically teaches that it is faith and faith alone that saves a man....when we embellish with works, church affiliation or membership, immersion, sacraments, something that WE MUST DO TO REMAIN saved, KEEP SAVED or FINISH off salvation we by default MOVE the landmark GOSPEL from the realm of truth and the ability to save into the false with no power to save.......JESUS is the source of our faith, he has dealt it to every man in measure (the ability to believe) HE BEGINS that work of FAITH, HE FINISHES that work of FAITH, HE COMPLETES that work of faith IN ALL who have genuinely believed into HIS saving faith, HIS sacrifice, HIS blood, HIS cross.....HE will not fail, he keeps his word, HE will NEVER LEAVE or FORSAKE a man and will even LEAVE the 99 to go find the one SHEEP (STILL A SHEEP) that went astray...to say one can lose salvation, forfeit salvation, give up salvation NEGATES the very words, power, and promises of CHRIST......and that is what you are missing and standing against.
If the translations lose something, is that one reason we disagree on what it takes to be saved?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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And you seem to obsessed to neglect it's true meaning in Acts

So why would Jesus choose him knowing that he would form a false sect with a view to lead people astray, to destruction and say "I hate his deeds, just as you do"

It does not make sense to me that Jesus would affirm a person to appoint them to destroy or try to destroy his church.

Does Jesus do that?

So Jesus according to you has given 7 men to oversee his church, one of which whose purpose was to destroy it (bear in mind he is omniscient) so knows all that is going to happen.

I don't think Jesus calls such a person.
But it seems you do.

Revelation 2:13
13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

At least the above held fast to his name.

Unlike those John talks about. Those who were not part of them, never knew Jesus.
Did Jesus put them there as well?
I would think that all the people in the 7 churches were of the saved type.

Jesus chose Judas, knowing he would kill him. Jesus chose Nicolas, even knowing he would be a troublemaker in his church. If you do not believe that Jesus chose Nicolas, then you must believe that the foundation of the church was Grecian women. Sorry, when the Grecians had presented the 7 to the apostles, this is what they did:
1) they prayed. Who did they pray to? Why would they even have to pray to Jesus? For revelation.
2) after they prayed and recieved revelation that these were the 7 to be chosen, they layed their hands on each of their heads and gave them the authority to do what they needed to to fulfill their callings, as assistants to the apostles.