Not By Works

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TitanDuck

New member
Jun 10, 2018
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The free will/predestination issue ignores that God knew the end from the begining when He set creation in motion. We have free will but God knows what we will do. He did this knowing the cross was in His future. This always blows my mind that He loves us so much He did it anyway.

Free will is a fallacy. It is not biblical (except for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden). It is IMPOSSIBLE to have "free" will because you will NEVER do something that you do NOT desire to do. And before we are saved we have no desire to follow God.... "There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God." Romans 3: 11. Not even God has free will... because He could not and will not EVER sin, or else He would cease to be God.

Free will is a system invented by men full of pride not wanting to believe that God is in complete control of everything, especially our eternal salvation. We are so flawed and this is a prime example of our foolishness. FREE WILL IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. Yes, God commands us to do things but that does not mean we are ABLE to do so without God's intervention and power. It is not about us. An example is the ten commandments....... do you think God ever thought any person would be able to keep the commandments perfectly their whole life? Of course not. But He still commanded us to obey and still does. He commands us to believe, but many do not believe. Not because of a flawed human's free will, but because of God's PERFECT WILL.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
691
113
Free will is a fallacy. It is not biblical (except for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden). It is IMPOSSIBLE to have "free" will because you will NEVER do something that you do NOT desire to do. And before we are saved we have no desire to follow God.... "There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God." Romans 3: 11. Not even God has free will... because He could not and will not EVER sin, or else He would cease to be God.

Free will is a system invented by men full of pride not wanting to believe that God is in complete control of everything, especially our eternal salvation. We are so flawed and this is a prime example of our foolishness. FREE WILL IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. Yes, God commands us to do things but that does not mean we are ABLE to do so without God's intervention and power. It is not about us. An example is the ten commandments....... do you think God ever thought any person would be able to keep the commandments perfectly their whole life? Of course not. But He still commanded us to obey and still does. He commands us to believe, but many do not believe. Not because of a flawed human's free will, but because of God's PERFECT WILL.
Do you "desire" going to work every day?
 

TitanDuck

New member
Jun 10, 2018
5
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1
Do you "desire" going to work every day?
Someone may not desire to go to work, but we are talking about spiritual desires which is much different than choosing to go to work or choosing what you will have for lunch. The free will we are talking about is of course in the context of spirituality and salvation, not trivial choices we make.
 

TitanDuck

New member
Jun 10, 2018
5
0
1
Someone may not desire to go to work, but we are talking about spiritual desires which is much different than choosing to go to work or choosing what you will have for lunch. The free will we are talking about is of course in the context of spirituality and salvation, not trivial choices we make.
In Philippians 4:13 it says we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us. Do you really think Paul literally meant we can do ALL things through Christ (i.e. flying off a building, committing crimes, etc.)??
 

TitanDuck

New member
Jun 10, 2018
5
0
1
Do you "desire" going to work every day?
Why would God draw men unto Him who He knew were going to end up unbelieving and end up in hell? Obviously that verse is speaking of believers.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
Free will is a fallacy. It is not biblical (except for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden). It is IMPOSSIBLE to have "free" will because you will NEVER do something that you do NOT desire to do. And before we are saved we have no desire to follow God.... "There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God." Romans 3: 11. Not even God has free will... because He could not and will not EVER be able sin, or else He would cease to be God.

Free will is a system invented by men full of pride not wanting to believe that God is in complete control of everything, especially our eternal salvation. We are so flawed and this is a prime example of our foolishness. FREE WILL IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. Yes, God commands us to do things but that does not mean we are ABLE to do so without God's intervention and power. It is not about us. An example is the ten commandments....... do you think God ever thought any person would be able to keep the commandments perfectly their whole life? Of course not. But He still commanded us to obey and still does. He commands us to believe, but many do not believe. Not because of a flawed human's free will, but because of God's PERFECT WILL.
What a bunch of drivel about the issue. We do what we choose to do. We make decisions many times a day. Some of those decisions have consequences down the road. Are you trying to tell me that we have no choice? Did God program us to make only certain decisions like a programmed robot? Paul stated he had the law of sin in him. His mind wanted to do God's will but that law of sin caused him to choose sin. He admitted he chose it. That is the dilemma all Christians face. We keep CHOOSING sin. The fact that we choose means we have free will. God at judgement time will judge all non Christians on what they choose to do!!! Are you saying God Christians are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That removes the penalty of the law from us. The law we freely chose to break. I have been watching Netflix videos of WWII on my android tablet. The people of Germany willingly followed Hitler into the bloodbath they suffered from following him. They rejoiced in his early victories. They kept following him even as they were being invaded from the east and west. They never gave up. They chose that path. Even as Berlin was being invaded those civilians that he came in contact with treated him like a hero. They still chose to follow him.

We get to freely choose what we do and God will judge non Christians on their choices.

Choosing means we have free will!!!
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
691
113
Someone may not desire to go to work, but we are talking about spiritual desires which is much different than choosing to go to work or choosing what you will have for lunch. The free will we are talking about is of course in the context of spirituality and salvation, not trivial choices we make.
Most of our sins are physical in nature.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
691
113
In Philippians 4:13 it says we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us. Do you really think Paul literally meant we can do ALL things through Christ (i.e. flying off a building, committing crimes, etc.)??
Often misunderstood.
Paul came to the conclusion he could bear any trial, perform any duty, subdue any wrong thoughts, and rebel all temptations, thanks be to Christ who strengthened him.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
691
113
Why would God draw men unto Him who He knew were going to end up unbelieving and end up in hell? Obviously that verse is speaking of believers.
God would draw all men unto Him so they could hear the Gospel. Whether they/we accept God's free gift of salvation is down to our free will.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
Often misunderstood.
Paul came to the conclusion he could bear any trial, perform any duty, subdue any wrong thoughts, and rebel all temptations, thanks be to Christ who strengthened him.
Here is Paul writing about his struggle with the law of sin in him.

Romans 7 NIV

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,083
17,422
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My point is that it is God who justifies, not me. Christ finished the work of God and all of salvations redemptive purpose. It is finished.......not....it is finished if this or that. My God is not up there biting his nails in hopes I will do the right things so the slaughter of his son won't be in vain. My salvation is not a test, nor is it at any time in my control.
Our faith and any and everything else is supplied by God to assure his make it home. The whole idea that we have anything to add to gods grace as a requirement of salvation is self centered and possibly self righteous. It diminishes faith in Christ, and can only accomplish what I could before the grace of God was bestowed upon us......nothing.
Awesome.....I agree.....It is finished = paid in full and the following statements speak volumes...

a. Saved to the uttermost
b. I will never leave thee nor forsake thee
c. Kept by the power of God through faith
d. Eternal/Everlasting life is exactly that
e. Sanctified eternally in Christ
f. Saved by faith
g. Justified by faith
h. SEALED unto the day of redemption (resurrection/change)

etc...
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
12,643
1,158
113
In Philippians 4:13 it says we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us. Do you really think Paul literally meant we can do ALL things through Christ (i.e. flying off a building, committing crimes, etc.)??
Actually he does all the things he appoints to us. All of those things that he appoints to us work to the good of God who works in them. It is Christ who can make our hearts soft as he works in us, with us to both will and do His good pleasure .(imputed righteousness ) Only when we follow his will eating the food of do we have the right kind of will the can please God not seen.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,083
17,422
113
Free will is a fallacy. It is not biblical (except for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden). It is IMPOSSIBLE to have "free" will because you will NEVER do something that you do NOT desire to do. And before we are saved we have no desire to follow God.... "There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God." Romans 3: 11. Not even God has free will... because He could not and will not EVER sin, or else He would cease to be God.

Free will is a system invented by men full of pride not wanting to believe that God is in complete control of everything, especially our eternal salvation. We are so flawed and this is a prime example of our foolishness. FREE WILL IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. Yes, God commands us to do things but that does not mean we are ABLE to do so without God's intervention and power. It is not about us. An example is the ten commandments....... do you think God ever thought any person would be able to keep the commandments perfectly their whole life? Of course not. But He still commanded us to obey and still does. He commands us to believe, but many do not believe. Not because of a flawed human's free will, but because of God's PERFECT WILL.
Joshua <----CHOOSE you this day WHOM you will serve.
GOD to DAVID <---I offer you three choices, CHOOSE one <--for numbering the people

TWO of many......Choice indicates the will to chose and your very last two examples = will and the right to chose....wow man...slow down and think about what you actually say....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,083
17,422
113
In Philippians 4:13 it says we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us. Do you really think Paul literally meant we can do ALL things through Christ (i.e. flying off a building, committing crimes, etc.)??
CONTEXT reveals that the "ALL THINGS" are those things that are biblical and within the realm and will of God.....geesh
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,083
17,422
113
Why would God draw men unto Him who He knew were going to end up unbelieving and end up in hell? Obviously that verse is speaking of believers.
ALL men will be drawn to Christ in the following manner...

a. FOR salvation
b. To be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
Awesome.....I agree.....It is finished = paid in full and the following statements speak volumes...

a. Saved to the uttermost
b. I will never leave thee nor forsake thee
c. Kept by the power of God through faith
d. Eternal/Everlasting life is exactly that
e. Sanctified eternally in Christ
f. Saved by faith
g. Justified by faith
h. SEALED unto the day of redemption (resurrection/change)

etc...
j
My favorite verse on the subject is John 10 AMPC
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
what does the bible say about those who stop trusting god and turn to unbelievers?

1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Thats only 1 thing the bible says about believers turning into unbelievers. Look up who the Nicolaitans were and why Jesus hated them.

They were followers of Nicolas, who it is believed to be one of the 7 deacons chosen to help relieve some of the burdens that were crushing the apostles. Stephen, the first martyr was one of these men. So believe me or not, these 7 were saved men in the KOG, yet one of them became so apostate that he and his followers were hated of Jesus. I would also say that if they were loved by Jesus at one time, and later hated by Jesus, it proves you can lose your eternal life.

IOW ES is a false doctrine.