Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
Hi NoName, Passingthrough is on ignore but here is a post from passingthrough to another poster,

Passingthrough say's; "Faith is Works" because I reckon Gal,5:6 say's; "faith "working" through love"
So know I reckon, "wrong is right and down really means up" is this not a bit upsetting.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but "faith working through love." Galatians 5:6
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
justpassinthrough said:
Yes sir, it is obeying the Truth within us: The Spirit of Truth.

Faith works.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
Hi NoName, Passingthrough is on ignore but here is a post from passingthrough to another poster,

Passingthrough say's; "Faith is Works" because I reckon Gal,5:6 say's; "faith "working" through love"
So know I reckon, "wrong is right and down really means up" is this not a bit upsetting.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but "faith working through love." Galatians 5:6
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
justpassinthrough said:
Yes sir, it is obeying the Truth within us: The Spirit of Truth.

Faith works.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6
wait a minute, I thought "faith works" means God is the one working, because faith is a gift from God.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
:unsure:

i dont believe so

jpt may indeed be a brother in error

i wouldnt deny it is possible

but i have only seen him lie,
Lying is a pretty serious charge. I have not been following this thread too closely, so I don't know.

Lying is deliberately declaring something you know to be false to be true. All of us probably say things that are not true at times, that does not make us liars. Mistaken or wrong, yes. But not liars. Are all of us certain every aspect of what we believe is the truth?

falsely accuse brothers and sisters
push a gospel that does not align with the bible
He is convinced his gospel does align with the Bible, and that yours doesn't. Calling each other names or accusing them of lying is not exactly conducive to getting people to change.

while rejecting any reproof sent his way
Again, all of us are probably guilty of that at times.

i believe to assume all JWs are saved
or mormons is not a correct way to go about things... these people will also profess Jesus to be their savior right before pushing many un-truths
I believe there are many JWs who are saved, and probably many who aren't. Same thing for Baptists, Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, etc. What saves a person is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe there are saved people in any denomination that has Jesus Christ at its center.

i wouldnt say everyone under these branches are damned just for attaching a false denomination or having been taught false doctrine

the same way i wouldnt say "oh if you claim youre catholic there is NO WAY you have yet been born again"
Good on you. :) There are a few here who are convinced that no Catholic, JW, or Mormon will be saved, they don't even consider them Christian.

.... do you believe i am wrong for my stance?

im open to reproof
I have no problem when a person defends their stance, even vehemently. But when it devolves to personal attacks, name calling, or calling each other "liar", no good will come from it. Sometimes it's best just to agree to disagree, and walk away.

Just my $.02.

(And I'm not guiltless in all this... It's VERY easy to get sucked down under another person's rock.. :) But I'm trying to improve, and allow it to happen less.)
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Lying is a pretty serious charge. I have not been following this thread too closely, so I don't know.

Lying is deliberately declaring something you know to be false to be true. All of us probably say things that are not true at times, that does not make us liars. Mistaken or wrong, yes. But not liars. Are all of us certain every aspect of what we believe is the truth?


He is convinced his gospel does align with the Bible, and that yours doesn't. Calling each other names or accusing them of lying is not exactly conducive to getting people to change.


Again, all of us are probably guilty of that at times.


I believe there are many JWs who are saved, and probably many who aren't. Same thing for Baptists, Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, etc. What saves a person is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe there are saved people in any denomination that has Jesus Christ at its center.


Good on you. :) There are a few here who are convinced that no Catholic, JW, or Mormon will be saved, they don't even consider them Christian.


I have no problem when a person defends their stance, even vehemently. But when it devolves to personal attacks, name calling, or calling each other "liar", no good will come from it. Sometimes it's best just to agree to disagree, and walk away.

Just my $.02.

(And I'm not guiltless in all this... It's VERY easy to get sucked down under another person's rock.. :) But I'm trying to improve, and allow it to happen less.)
well i do understand and agree with you it is a serious claim to call someone a liar

and i do not believe i was wrong (as in "inaccurate") with what i said
but i agree with pretty much everything you said... even your 0.02$

thank you

i appreciate it
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,363
113
HAHAH gone a day and the thread goes kaboooommmm....So glad I have a few on ignore....I got tired of the deception, skewed verses, twisted things we say and false accusations.........
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
I have no problem when a person defends their stance, even vehemently. But when it devolves to personal attacks, name calling, or calling each other "liar", no good will come from it. Sometimes it's best just to agree to disagree, and walk away.

Just my $.02.

(And I'm not guiltless in all this... :) "But I'm trying to improve", and allow it to happen less.)
Hi shrume,
I will agree with you here, we should have more civil debates going on and less character assassinations,

God bless
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
So try it again, how am I in error? I am saying believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus. I call upon the name of the Lord. Show me my error. If there is no error, be humble enought to admit it.

There is no error in those words, bro.

You have spoken the truth.



JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
Hi NoName, Passingthrough is on ignore but here is a post from passingthrough to another poster,

Passingthrough say's; "Faith is Works" because I reckon Gal,5:6 say's; "faith "working" through love"
So know I reckon, "wrong is right and down really means up" is this not a bit upsetting.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but "faith working through love." Galatians 5:6
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
justpassinthrough said:
Yes sir, it is obeying the Truth within us: The Spirit of Truth.

Faith works.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


I like the way the NIV says it -

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6 NIV


  • The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.


So what do you have against this scripture?




JPT
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,407
10,142
113
55
Hi NoName, Passingthrough is on ignore but here is a post from passingthrough to another poster,

Passingthrough say's; "Faith is Works" because I reckon Gal,5:6 say's; "faith "working" through love"
Faith is faith and works are works. JPT (along with other works-salvationists) misinterpret multiple passages of scripture because of their faulty misunderstanding that "faith is works," which leads to the faulty conclusion that we are saved by works and even though such people will deny it, they clearly teach that we are saved by faith (their version of faith) + works.

I was in a discussion with a Roman Catholic a little while back who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradicted himself and said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to believe that by not teaching that salvation comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above, which is saying that "faith is works" and they call that salvation through faith. It's all just Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors. :rolleyes:
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Faith is faith and works are works. JPT (along with other works-salvationists) misinterpret multiple passages of scripture because of their faulty misunderstanding that "faith is works," which leads to the faulty conclusion that we are saved by works and even though such people will deny it, they clearly teach that we are saved by faith (their version of faith) + works.

I was in a discussion with a Roman Catholic a little while back who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradicted himself and said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to believe that by not teaching that salvation comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above, which is saying that "faith is works" and they call that salvation through faith. It's all just Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors. :rolleyes:

amen brother

salvation isnt a payment....

it isnt a reward......



it is a gift

a gift we have only God to thank for
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9




JPT
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
113
Faith is faith and works are works.
JPT (along with other works-salvationists) misinterpret multiple passages of scripture because of their faulty misunderstanding that "faith is works," which leads to the faulty conclusion that we are saved by works and even though such people will deny it, they clearly teach that we are saved by faith (their version of faith) + works.
Can't separate faith from works. Faith is the work of God a labor of His love that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.(imputed righteousness ) It is the work of God by which we can believe Him. He must do the first work (cause and effect) Like the first work of faith in creation our faithfull Creator said ….let there be light …. and there was. God not seen pronounced it good .
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,407
10,142
113
55
Can't separate faith from works..
Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root, yet faith is still faith and works are still works. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
113
amen brother

salvation isnt a payment....

it isnt a reward......



it is a gift

a gift we have only God to thank for

I would add its the reward that comes from Christ making a payment (drinking the cup of wrath) in our place. It was His work of faith that earned it ….as the new faith he freely rewards us with. We then can diligently seek him who has no form

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith (Christ's faith working in us) it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God (not seen) must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If we would have faith in respect to our own selves (the imagination of of hearts )then we have blasphemed the Holy name by which we are called . To Blaspheme is to attribute the work of one to another, like plagiarism

We should be careful on how we use the word faith as a work .as to who it belongs to . His name if Jealous . His love is not.
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
Can't separate faith from works. Faith is the work of God a labor of His love that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.(imputed righteousness ) It is the work of God by which we can believe Him. He must do the first work (cause and effect) Like the first work of faith in creation our faithfull Creator said ….let there be light …. and there was. God not seen pronounced it good .

James says faith is incomplete without works.

The "works" here James is referring to is the obedience of faith, the corresponding action of man responding to God in obedience, to the word of faith.


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


The word "perfect" here in verse 22 is to be made complete or fulfilled.


Like a body without a spirit is incomplete and is therefore dead, or dormant, being inactive, so faith without the corresponding act of obedience is dead, in which it is unable to function and produce the intended divine result, which is this case is justification.



20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22


  • a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.



The action of obedience to the word of faith, was to touch the hem of His garment.


Not go and do good works
Not do the works of the law


But to simply do what the word of faith says to do: the obedience of faith.


For salvation, the word of faith is Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.


So a person must respond to this word of faith, by repenting.


Repent means to turn to God in submission to His kingdom and rule as Lord.


So the obedience of faith when a person hears the Gospel, is to confess Jesus as Lord.


8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10




  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.





JPT
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
We are saved; By faith alone, in Christ alone

It is by "Faith Alone" we are saved. God appoints everyone a measure of faith to believe, it is from God that we believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Confession is proof of what has happened to the heart of the believer, which is, "Salvation." Confession is a work of the mouth that comes after you are saved.

Philippians 3:9:
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Quote:
Paul makes absolutely no mention of “confessing Jesus as Lord” in order to receive justification. In these early chapters, the apostle has repeatedly stressed the need for faith alone, just as the Reformers had discovered. It seems rather strange that in chapter 10 Paul would add to justification by faith the need for “confession” —a concept he completely excluded in the early chapters of his epistle. In fact, Paul never mentions confession as a requirement for justification in any of his other epistles.
The term "faith alone" or "faith only" is only found in 1 verse in the bible. That verse is James 2:24 and you would not want to use that verse to rest your case for 'faith alone'. So bottom line, your 'faith only' doctrine is a man made doctrine, not being found in the bible.

Romans 10:9 the bible says: that if we confess with our mouths that we believe with all our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we will be saved.
You say that confession is a work of the mouth that comes after you are saved.

I know to a certain extent it is a study in semantics, but it goes to the definition of what it takes to be saved.

I believe this scripture in the bible in that confession is part of the saving process. Your statement says that confession is a work after you are saved. In leiu of Romans 10:9 do you what to change your statement?
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,519
1,984
113
North Carolina
Confession will not save anyone. Yes, when we know we have committed a sin (no matter big or little) we should talk with God and confess it. That confession is simply to keep our hearts/minds clean and pure. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned, worked for, kept through human efforts. It is a gift to be accepted. Plain and simple
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root, yet faith is still faith and works are still works. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.
Would you consider this statement:
Faith, accompanied by works is the root of salvation, and the fruit is a relieved recipient of our faith/works. Our faith/works manifests itself in taking care of the poor and the hungry and the naked and the imprisoned, etc., etc., etc. The fruit is the needy person is taken care of and becomes a child of God and the KOG expands.

As we lose our life in faith/works/love, we find it in salvation/eternal life with God and Jesus.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
I would add its the reward that comes from Christ making a payment (drinking the cup of wrath) in our place. It was His work of faith that earned it ….as the new faith he freely rewards us with. We then can diligently seek him who has no form

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith (Christ's faith working in us) it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God (not seen) must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If we would have faith in respect to our own selves (the imagination of of hearts )then we have blasphemed the Holy name by which we are called . To Blaspheme is to attribute the work of one to another, like plagiarism

We should be careful on how we use the word faith as a work .as to who it belongs to . His name if Jealous . His love is not.

i definitely dont take credit for my faith

or consider it a work

He called me

i resisted

He insisted

i could not deny what i knew to be true

God is real

Jesus is exactly who He said

and He is the only way to salvation


even when i didnt understand it

even when i never once picked up the bible

i went from unbelief to convicted

and i remember the night it happened

cried my eyes out for the first time in years

went back to trying to live as i used to... and felt shame
guilt
fear

and a DEEP rooted KNOWING i was wrong

started to seek Him

read the bible many times

ended up believing in sinless perfection <- works salvation

then was delivered from my false doctrine when i placed my understanding at Gods feet and asked for Him to reveal to me the truth and show me only what He wants me to see
even if i walk away looking like a fool before men for my previous beliefs and arguments


i actually posted my testimony here about a year ago

as a sinless perfectionist