Not By Works

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Oct 31, 2015
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You cannot lose your salvation once you're saved. Are you calling God a liar? Or an Indian giver?

No, I'm calling the person who came up with that unbiblical doctrine a liar, and a promoter of heresy.


People who say that sheep can never become lost, are calling Jesus a liar.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


  • if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?


For the rational Christian, who desires to know and walk in truth, all that is needed is to simply read this passage of scripture, to know that OSAS is a lie from hell.



  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who becomes lost, is as a sinner in need of repentance.



The prodigal son, same thing -



32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32


  • for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’


Now, let me see you define what "lost" means.






JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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And they follow me; our practical sanctification; works cannot save you, a very hard lesson for you to learn. "And" we shall never parish. So what do you not understand about the words, "Never and Perish"

You are promoting a self-righteous "save yourself" counterfeit gospel; no wonder you have no eternal security,

Repent and Believe the Gospel

John10:25-30
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30I and the Father are one.”


Please define what "lost" means.





JPT
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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No, I'm calling the person who came up with that unbiblical doctrine a liar, and a promoter of heresy.


People who say that sheep can never become lost, are calling Jesus a liar.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


  • if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?


For the rational Christian, who desires to know and walk in truth, all that is needed is to simply read this passage of scripture, to know that OSAS is a lie from hell.



  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who becomes lost, is as a sinner in need of repentance.



The prodigal son, same thing -



32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32


  • for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’


Now, let me see you define what "lost" means.






JPT

From my own personal experience, "lost" to me means someone who has wandered away from God and is trying to do things on their own without Him. People CAN become lost, but eventually find their way back to where they were. I wandered away from God for a longggg time, living life on my own without asking Him for guidance. I paid dearly for that, and I'm STILL trying to find my way back to Him. So, does the fact that I wandered away mean that I've lost my salvation? NOPE. :) I still have it, it's here still waiting for me. God cannot and will not, revoke His gift of salvation that He has given me.

Now, if YOU mean "lost" as in if someone was never saved and has no intention of being saved, then I would say, that person IS truly lost in the wilderness without a compass. And unless they come to know God and turn to Him and become saved, they will never see heaven.

IMO, the only way to lose salvation, or have it denied to you, is to openly reject the existence of God, Jesus and the HS..
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Also, I've never said that God's sheep cannot become lost. I've only said that one cannot lose their salvation once God has gifted it to them. :) Getting lost off God's path, and losing your salvation are two vastly different things.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Also, I've never said that God's sheep cannot become lost. I've only said that one cannot lose their salvation once God has gifted it to them. :) Getting lost off God's path, and losing your salvation are two vastly different things.
The orange kitty has spoken! Now sadly i will wait while a few dogs try to rip he wonderful few posts to shreds 🙁
 
Oct 31, 2015
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From my own personal experience, "lost" to me means someone who has wandered away from God and is trying to do things on their own without Him. People CAN become lost, but eventually find their way back to where they were. I wandered away from God for a longggg time, living life on my own without asking Him for guidance. I paid dearly for that, and I'm STILL trying to find my way back to Him. So, does the fact that I wandered away mean that I've lost my salvation? NOPE. :) I still have it, it's here still waiting for me. God cannot and will not, revoke His gift of salvation that He has given me.

Now, if YOU mean "lost" as in if someone was never saved and has no intention of being saved, then I would say, that person IS truly lost in the wilderness without a compass. And unless they come to know God and turn to Him and become saved, they will never see heaven.

IMO, the only way to lose salvation, or have it denied to you, is to openly reject the existence of God, Jesus and the HS..

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

However, Jesus teaches us what lost means:


Not Reconciled to God
A sinner in need of repentance
Dead to God

Not Saved.


We don't get to make up definitions of biblical words.


If lost doesn't mean lost to God; dead to God, a sinner in need of repentance, then why the Gospel Message?



James says it this way -


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death



A brother or sister in Christ who wanders away, has become a sinner in need of repentance, or face eternal death.





JPT
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Thank you for sharing your opinion.

However, Jesus teaches us what lost means:


Not Reconciled to God
A sinner in need of repentance
Dead to God

Not Saved.


We don't get to make up definitions of biblical words.


If lost doesn't mean lost to God; dead to God, a sinner in need of repentance, then why the Gospel Message?



James says it this way -


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death



A brother or sister in Christ who wanders away, has become a sinner in need of repentance, or face eternal death.





JPT
I rest my case

ps. Lost does not always mean what this poster thinks, Jesus said he will leave the flock to go get his one LOST sheep (the sheep belonged to him so he was already saved) to return him to the flock.

The prodigal child was lost. But was no found, yet he was ALWAYS the son (you can not break blood ties.)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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James says it this way -


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death
A brother or sister in Christ who wanders away, has become a sinner in need of repentance, or face eternal death.JPT
Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died".

In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

"Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit." In 1 Corinthians 5:5, we read - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, (physical death) so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (no second death).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died".

In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

"Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit." In 1 Corinthians 5:5, we read - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, (physical death) so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (no second death).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).
I noticed that you used NASB Greek-Hebrew Dictionary, the Word is spelled as psuchē .

When you use the STRONG'S Greek & Hebrew Dictionary, it is spelled Strong's for the word Soul, it is spelled psychē.

I wander which of the Spellings of the Word is Correct, or are Both spelling of the Word Correct?

The Strong's spelling seems more right to me, because of this verse:


Hebrews 4:12 (NASB)
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


That verse clearly tells us that the WORD OF GOD, can tell us what Division between SOUL and SPIRIT, actually are. When you use the Strong's spelling the Transliterated word from psychē to psyche, seems to imply that the word for SOUL is meant to imply that all functions of the human brain is the SOUL of MAN. Here Jesus uses that word in that very same way.


Luke 12:19 (NASB)
19 'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'

and here:

John 12:27 (NASB)
27 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.


While the Human Spirit is clearly brought from spiritual death to LIFE ETERNALLY by the Holy Spirit.


John 3:6 (NASB)
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Now Notice, (in the verse above in your post, which I highlighted in RED). Unless you are willing to entertain that there are species of humanoids living under the sea in under-water Cities; THEN THAT REFERS TO FISH AND EVERY AQUATIC ANIMAL WITH AT BRAIN. I think that is MORE proof that the SOUL, is referring to the functioning BRAIN of MAN.

ONE MORE:


Psalm 74:19 (NASB)
19 Do not deliver the soul of Your turtledove to the wild beast; Do not forget the life of Your afflicted forever.


Which seems to imply that the SOUL is part of the FLESH?


Genesis 2:7 (ASV)
7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [With a dead spirit that must be born again, after the fall of ADAM.]


What do you think?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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No, I'm calling the person who came up with that unbiblical doctrine a liar, and a promoter of heresy.


People who say that sheep can never become lost, are calling Jesus a liar.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


  • if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?


For the rational Christian, who desires to know and walk in truth, all that is needed is to simply read this passage of scripture, to know that OSAS is a lie from hell.



  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who becomes lost, is as a sinner in need of repentance.



The prodigal son, same thing -



32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32


  • for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’


Now, let me see you define what "lost" means.






JPT

You have to become a real sheep before you can be lost, and that is the PRODIGAL. HE WILL RETURN TO THE FATHER.

The one that was NEVER BORN AGAIN, will NEVER RETURN TO THE FATHER. HE FALLS UNDER THIS VERSE:

Hebrews 6:4 (NRSV)
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,


WE HAVE DONE WAY MORE THAN JUST TASTED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. HE RESIDES IN US.


Hebrews 11:6 (CSBBible)
6 Now without faith it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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You have to become a real sheep before you can be lost,
Exactly the point I’m making.

Real sheep who become lost, are as a sinner in need of repentance or they will be lost for eternity; spiritual death.


Lost means without God; dead to God.

Found means reconciled to God.



That’s the end of OSAS.



JPT
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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No, I'm calling the person who came up with that unbiblical doctrine a liar, and a promoter of heresy.


People who say that sheep can never become lost, are calling Jesus a liar.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


  • if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?


For the rational Christian, who desires to know and walk in truth, all that is needed is to simply read this passage of scripture, to know that OSAS is a lie from hell.



  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who becomes lost, is as a sinner in need of repentance.



The prodigal son, same thing -



32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32


  • for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’


Now, let me see you define what "lost" means.






JPT
Is that not the point though of the parable?
The 99 who do not need to repent?

Luke 15:1-3
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
3 So he told them this parable:

Is it possible that this parable related to the Pharisees & the Scribes?
After all they saw no need to repent and believe in Jesus for salvation.

Afterall the healthy do not need a doctor.

So this parable was given given after the response of those who grumbled.

That's the joy, because one who knows they need to repent do so.
The 99 did not need to repent, AKA the religious establishment.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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. . .

For the rational Christian, who desires to know and walk in truth, all that is needed is to simply read this passage of scripture, to know that OSAS is a lie from hell.

. . .

JPT

I am not mad, that you keep calling OSAS is a lie from.

I am sad for you.

What are you going to do, when you find out that it is the absolute TRUTH?


Philippians 1:6 (ESV)
6 And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you
will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.



John 10:25-28 (HCSB)
25 “I did tell you and you don’t believe,” Jesus answered them.
“The works that I do in My Father’s name testify about Me.
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.



2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
if OSAS is wrong

what about twice saved?

um, how many times do we have to be saved to guarantee always saved?

if "always saved is impossible" will people in heaven fall off from heaven?

does salvation even exist?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Did you read post #66,551?
Yes, and that makes some sense to me. It is almost a given that when you believe you confess. You either confess in your heart, or you confess to our brothers in the gospel. You cannot hold it within you, you must confess that Jesus is the Christ. This is a saving principal.

I go a step further and say that because of your love of Jesus and your new person, you are compelled by the expansion of glory inside you to give up the old man and be washed anew in the waters of baptism by complete immersion. This event, to me is part of the saving process and completes the first steps toward being that new person. Now because of your new person in Christ you are ready and willing to do the good works that you were born again unto and prepared for you by Christ to do.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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if OSAS is wrong

what about twice saved?

um, how many times do we have to be saved to guarantee always saved?

if "always saved is impossible" will people in heaven fall off from heaven?

does salvation even exist?
Good question. You are saved once, but if you finally reject your gift and fall away, don't expect Jesus to finally force you to his heaven.

We are saved once and then if we sin (which is a given), we go through the repentance process and get back in reconciliation with Jesus and continue to move forward.

Remember that satan was once an angel of great glory, being even next to Jesus Christ in importance. When he fell, with many followers with him, he was forced out of heaven. There is no iniquity where God lives and so if you cannot abide that law, you are forced to leave. I cannot imagine that anyone that is saved and sanctified and resurrected into the KOG will be forced out.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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I am not mad, that you keep calling OSAS is a lie from.

I am sad for you.

What are you going to do, when you find out that it is the absolute TRUTH?


Philippians 1:6 (ESV)
6 And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you
will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.



John 10:25-28 (HCSB)
25 “I did tell you and you don’t believe,” Jesus answered them.
“The works that I do in My Father’s name testify about Me.
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.



2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.
He will be OK because he has done the same things to be saved that you have done. His road is much harder than yours, and if yours is right, he will rejoice with you in the KOG.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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NOW WHERE ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH DID YOU GET THAT GOD-Whispered theology FROM, the MORMONS?

2 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

NOT THERE.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV)
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God
spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.


Now there it said they spoke, and then apparently WROTE IT DOWN.
Hello, moved by the Holy Spirit is another word for God-whispered, of God-inspired. It is not that far out there.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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You forgot to add and, "you can lose" your eternal salvation and that salvation is by works. Eternal Life is a free gift and no one can snatch us out of His hands. Your fake gospel leads you to fear of losing your salvation and never knowing if I am in or out of salvation.

Yes it is a horrible insecure gospel that you promote.
All I am saying at this point is, "if I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe with all my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and I will be saved. That's it. And we cannot even agree on that because you have some notion that conessing with my mouth is a work? and therefore not necessary, even though a bible scripture clearly states that it is.

How horrible of me to believe in such a horrible gospel.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Thanks for clarifying your words, I've heard scripture is "God breathed" and "God inspired" but God whispered is something I had never heard before.

2Timothy3:16
All Scripture is "God-breathed", and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Ya, I probably got that wrong, but breathed and whispered is not far from each other. Sorry.