Hi Grace,
You wrote a very nice post to me to which I wanted to reply. I've been busy but wanted to spend some time with it, instead this thread goes too fast and I can't find it anymore!
I agree with everything you say. The problem I have is that some people hear what they want to hear and not what the person is saying.
I was at a funeral mass the other day and a very nice priest (a friend) spoke about the DOOR, the GATE. You have to go through the gate. Who is the gate? Jesus. The RCC does teach belief in Jesus, but many do not HEAR this. At the luncheon I spoke about this and no one at that table (except for my born again daughter) understood what the priest said, although it could not be clearer.
SO, when a new Christian reads along, he might get the impression from reading certain things (which I happen to agree with)
that he JUST HAS TO HAVE FAITH IN JESUS, and all will be just fine --- when in reality Jesus said we are to do the work of the Kingdom.
I've thought about this and I believe the difficulty I personally have here is the Language we speak.
We talk about works...
Works are necessary as we all agree.
So maybe the problem is with the words "LAW" and "GRACE"?
A girl at out table told me she goes to Mass because she feels she has to. This is following the Law.
I told her it's like not even going, and she should go because she loves God. This is Grace.
She's still going to Mass, but one is efficacious and the other is of no value.
BOTH ARE A WORK.
Everything we do is a work. It's just that some have value and some don't.
We still must FOLLOW THE LAW. It was NOT abolished.
But the REASON we follow the Law and do works is what counts.
So, OF COURSE we are saved by faith ALONE.
Works come after.
When we say that FAITH ONLY STILL SAVES US AND CONTINUES TO SAVE US,
that's where I fear some may misunderstand.
Continued salvation, or progressive justification, or sanctification, ARE a cooperative effort which includes man.
AND we cannot say that God does everything in us.
If this were true, then He would also have to accept the responsibility when we do not listen to Him and sin.
WE are RESPONSIBLE for our once time decision (salvation) and our daily decisions (sanctification).
Thessalonians 3:11 tells us to work and not be idle. Paul meant real work, like at a job, however some had stopped doing everything and instead Paul said we are to continue to do everthing --- until the Lord returns. In verse 14 Paul goes so far as to say to not associate with those who do not obey his instructions.
Thessalonians 4:3 it is God's will that we be sanctified --- and then it goes on to say what we are not to do. Paul says that the Lord will punish those for such sins. This means that WE are responsible for our own sins and cannot blame God.
Paul goes on to say that God called us to live a holy life, and he who rejects this does not reject man but rejects God, who gives us the Holy Spirit.
Faith and belief in Jesus DOES CONTINUE to save us.
But what does BELIEF in Jesus mean?
Everyone here, including yourself, seems to understand Greek.
BELIEF in the Greek means TO FOLLOW, to AGREE WITH, TO OBEY.
So, my question is simple:
Is it correct to say that ONLY FAITH CONTINUES to save?
Or should we say that our OBEDIENCE of faith continues to save us?
You wrote a very nice post to me to which I wanted to reply. I've been busy but wanted to spend some time with it, instead this thread goes too fast and I can't find it anymore!
I agree with everything you say. The problem I have is that some people hear what they want to hear and not what the person is saying.
I was at a funeral mass the other day and a very nice priest (a friend) spoke about the DOOR, the GATE. You have to go through the gate. Who is the gate? Jesus. The RCC does teach belief in Jesus, but many do not HEAR this. At the luncheon I spoke about this and no one at that table (except for my born again daughter) understood what the priest said, although it could not be clearer.
SO, when a new Christian reads along, he might get the impression from reading certain things (which I happen to agree with)
that he JUST HAS TO HAVE FAITH IN JESUS, and all will be just fine --- when in reality Jesus said we are to do the work of the Kingdom.
I've thought about this and I believe the difficulty I personally have here is the Language we speak.
We talk about works...
Works are necessary as we all agree.
So maybe the problem is with the words "LAW" and "GRACE"?
A girl at out table told me she goes to Mass because she feels she has to. This is following the Law.
I told her it's like not even going, and she should go because she loves God. This is Grace.
She's still going to Mass, but one is efficacious and the other is of no value.
BOTH ARE A WORK.
Everything we do is a work. It's just that some have value and some don't.
We still must FOLLOW THE LAW. It was NOT abolished.
But the REASON we follow the Law and do works is what counts.
So, OF COURSE we are saved by faith ALONE.
Works come after.
When we say that FAITH ONLY STILL SAVES US AND CONTINUES TO SAVE US,
that's where I fear some may misunderstand.
Continued salvation, or progressive justification, or sanctification, ARE a cooperative effort which includes man.
AND we cannot say that God does everything in us.
If this were true, then He would also have to accept the responsibility when we do not listen to Him and sin.
WE are RESPONSIBLE for our once time decision (salvation) and our daily decisions (sanctification).
Thessalonians 3:11 tells us to work and not be idle. Paul meant real work, like at a job, however some had stopped doing everything and instead Paul said we are to continue to do everthing --- until the Lord returns. In verse 14 Paul goes so far as to say to not associate with those who do not obey his instructions.
Thessalonians 4:3 it is God's will that we be sanctified --- and then it goes on to say what we are not to do. Paul says that the Lord will punish those for such sins. This means that WE are responsible for our own sins and cannot blame God.
Paul goes on to say that God called us to live a holy life, and he who rejects this does not reject man but rejects God, who gives us the Holy Spirit.
Faith and belief in Jesus DOES CONTINUE to save us.
But what does BELIEF in Jesus mean?
Everyone here, including yourself, seems to understand Greek.
BELIEF in the Greek means TO FOLLOW, to AGREE WITH, TO OBEY.
So, my question is simple:
Is it correct to say that ONLY FAITH CONTINUES to save?
Or should we say that our OBEDIENCE of faith continues to save us?
I believe that none of us knows all things as ought to know it and your story about the priest saying Jesus is the door is a great example. Others that see the "other" aspects of the catholic belief system will reject everything and thus miss the fact that the priest said "Jesus is the gate".
Sometimes we Christians take what are descriptions of the life of Christ manifesting in and through us and then we can try to "dictate' His fruit and make it a requirement for on-going salvation in reference to living with Him for all eternity because we are joined as one spirit with Him in our inner man of the heart - the new creation in Christ.
Well, Jesus is the Savior - not ourselves. He supplies all the nutrients needed. In His grace faith is supplied.
To answer your question in brown above.
Obedience to the faith is what saves us for eternal life being brought to us - all because of Christ Himself. We can walk in the things of the life of Christ that is in us now by walking by the spirit and thus experience His life in us in this earth or walk by the flesh which brings destruction of some sort in this life.
The process for salvation as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord remains intact - no matter how much our stinking thinking gets screwed up because of the experiences we encounter in this life after we receive Christ.
True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.
Getting "saved" is simple.
Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
The process is simple too.
1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him
2) we believe the message from our hearts
3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit
( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)
the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)
you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)
you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.
Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.
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