Not By Works

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Oct 31, 2015
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A sheep that wanders ia still a sheep and no where does scripture say arw turned backninto a goat...that view is idiotic...and the Prodigal was a son throughout the whole process and onle perceived as dead by his actions, yet was very much ALIVE throughout the whole process....

Define the following words applied to salvation

irrevocable gift
eternal life
everlasting life
saved to the uttermost
kept by the power of God

Your false dogma denies, rejects and sweeps under the table the above FACTS......there are NO verses in context that teaches a man can lose or forfeit salvation.....!!!!

I agree there are eternal consequences.


If you love a person who's theology is severely flawed, you should try and help them, by taking the scriptures they seem to be conflating, and show them from those scriptures where they are wrong.


One of us is discussing the scriptures from Luke 15, while the other is making accusations and attacking the other person.


My point that I made from the scriptures is a sheep can wander away and become lost.


If someone loses something, then what they lost was theirs [found] to begin with, before it became lost.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


  • ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
  • there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
  • than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



Please define for me, based on the language from this passage, what the word "lost" means.


Please explain for me how a sinner in need of repentance is saved.


Please explain how a lost sinner in need of repentance is still justified, when only the sheep who are not lost are said to be justififed.







JLB
 
Mar 28, 2016
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this looks good on paper, but it is deceptive. belief and faith are mental acts. they will lead to one going good works, doing one's best to avoid sin, but they are mental acts.

you can't just throw all these in a blender, and see what comes out. does not work that way.

the order set fourth needs to be defined and kept in the order it was set fourth.


Mental acts as a work are how we decide between two kind of autrorities. depenting on which one gives a the person the mind of Christ as the faith needed to believe God or beleive Baal .,

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.1 Kings 18:21

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

It is the work of God working in us as it worked in Rehab and Abraham as a imputed righteousness. By his work of faith we can beleive Him and not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride (John 6:29)
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Faith is a noun.

Do you understand what a noun is?

I think so.

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confession is not a work for salvation, but is an expression of faith.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Faith is not a mental act.


Faith is a noun.

Do you understand what a noun is?


A noun is a person, place or thing: The substance of the thing we hope for.


Believe is a verb: it what we do.


Believe in not a mental action.


  • with the heart one believes


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


The believing in the heart must be accompanied by the action of obedience to confess with our mouth.


This is what completes faith.


Believe with the heart and obey.


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


  • faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [complete] perfect?


Confessing with the mouth Jesus as our Lord, is how we obey the Gospel.


10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


  • But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16





JPT
greek word for believe- pisteuo- definition- to trust, to think to be true, to put confidence in, to be persuaded of.

so, as I said, a mental act.

words have definitions . you and needs to study man do not get to control language, as hard as you try,

so, you stand corrected.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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so, as I said, a mental act.

Believe with our heart and confess with our mouth.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


THis is the obeying part that brings about salvation: regenation - being born again.


  • you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit


22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
1 Peter 1:22-25




JPT
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Abraham is just one of many examples of God's way of saved by grace through faith for good works.

God reached out to Abram. ( grace ). Abram believed . ( faith ). Abram did what God said ( works).

that is always the order God uses.
<><.🕆.><>

Are you trying to justify Works Righteousness? If so, it is a very poor job.

You cannot LOVE GOD the way he wants to be LOVED, except that you are BORN AGAIN (SAVED) FIRST as a FREE GIFT.



Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.


NOTE: That last verse makes it clear, that faithful, good works, COMES AFTER SALVATION HAS BEEN COMPLETED AS A FREE GIFT. IT THEREFORE IS PART OF OUR LOVE, and NOT Part of SALVATION.


1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—
how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,



John 4:10 (NCV)
10 Jesus said, “If you only knew the free gift of God and who it is that is asking you for water, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.“

Romans 5:16-17 (ESV)
16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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<><.🕆.><>

Are you trying to justify Works Righteousness? If so, it is a very poor job.

You cannot LOVE GOD the way he wants to be LOVED, except that you are BORN AGAIN (SAVED) FIRST as a FREE GIFT.



Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.


NOTE: That last verse makes it clear, that faithful, good works, COMES AFTER SALVATION HAS BEEN COMPLETED AS A FREE GIFT. IT THEREFORE IS PART OF OUR LOVE, and NOT Part of SALVATION.


1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—
how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,



John 4:10 (NCV)
10 Jesus said, “If you only knew the free gift of God and who it is that is asking you for water, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.“

Romans 5:16-17 (ESV)
16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
no, I was expounding on what Paul said- saved by grace through faith for good works. in that order,
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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If we believe not "after belief" HE ABIDES FAITHFUL BECAUSE HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF<---HIS BLOOD AND RIGHTEOUSNESS HAVE BEEN ETERNALLY APPLIED BY FAITH!
So a man gets all excited about Jesus and has a born-again experience. Is full of Christian charity, is faithful and steady in his church, has a great family and teaches them well. And then one day a woman enters into his life and he eventually throws all of it away to have her. He throws away his moral compass, he throws away his charity, he throws away his family, and he finally rejects Jesus and throws Jesus away. They get married and they live together for 20 years and then another woman enters into his life and he throws his second wife away for a new one. Finally he 40 years after throwing Jesus away, he dies, unrepentant.

Will Jesus force him to come to heaven and live with him for eternity?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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For those who believe in salvation by grace through faith alone, here is and example of how God's grace works to regenerate a person who is spiritually dead but made alive in Christ by God's grace through faith alone.
"sola gratia" (grace alone)., through "sola fide" (faith alone).

Monergism: "Faith itself is a gift of God"
Quote: "This position teaches that salvation is entirely a work of God; That man can contribute nothing toward the price of his salvation and that one is saved wholly and unconditionally by grace through faith, that faith itself is a gift of God." (Eph2:8, John1:13, 2Tim 2:25, Phil1:29, Hebrews12:2, 1John 5:1, Rom3:24,

Lydia’s Conversion in Philippi: Acts16:13a,14
13) We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14) One of those listening was
a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God.
The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.
 

Metternich

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2018
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Any gospel that teaches salvation can be lost, forfeit, gained or maintained by any human effort, work, religious deed and or is not eternally given as an irrevocable gift is false, contrary to the bible and NOT OF GOD....end of story....irrevocable means exactly that and eternal life is given freely by grace through faith and verb tense PROVES A CONTINUING RESULT FROM A PAST COMPLETED ACTION....regardless of any and all who deny this truth...

Whatsoever God does is everlasting...nothing ADDED nor TAKEN AWAY AND HE DOES THIS SO MEN MAY FEAR HIM....

Eternal life by the single act of faith
Eternal death by the the single act of rejection
When you say "verb tense PROVES A CONTINUING RESULT FROM A PAST COMPLETED ACTION.." what verse or verses are you referring to?
 

Janna38

Well-known member
Jul 2, 2018
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Then the Father gave the Son to die. ‘The End’ guys enough with your works.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The greek word for believe is a verb, just exactly as I said.
The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" (James 2:19) or also include "trust and reliance" (Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe/have faith in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Authentic belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" (James 2:19) or also include "trust and reliance" (Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe/have faith in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Authentic belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).
Jesus goes into great detail to warn about those who are convinced they had "Faith" but refused to trust Jesus enough to follow His Instructions.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These "Believers" had fruits as you said all genuine believes have. They were also convinced in their mind that they were "Saved". They taught in Christ's name, surely they claimed"Belief" in Jesus. Yet, they were rejected from His Kingdom.

Why? Because of their "WORKS". Their "Works" showed who they really had "faith" in, who they really trusted. Had they truly believed in the Jesus of the Bible, they would have followed His teaching.

titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Jesus warned that "MANY" would take this broad "Path". He said to "Strive to enter" (Work) into a different path.

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. ( All Works)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Works)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 8:
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word,( Works) then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Rom. 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

But they all thought they did believe Dan. They were "convinced" that they were "Genuine believers", God's People. They had "fruits", some more than others. So why did Jesus say He rejected them?

Was it not because they omitted parts of His Instructions? Isn't that the reason why they were rejected? Wasn't that the "fruit" that allowed us to see their true faith?

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,(God's instructions) judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So even though they claimed God as their savior, and they claimed to have "Faith" "Belief" in Him, they were deceiving themselves because if they had truly loved, trusted, had Faith in Him, they would have done as He instructed as did Abraham.

Paul is using them as a tool of warning for us.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: (Works) otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

As it is written;

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So to conclude, those who have true "Faith" in Jesus with trust Him enough to do as He says. We will deny our thoughts, take up our individuality, and follow Him. Not the religious traditions of man as "Many" did in Christ's time. But we will submit our self to Him and HIS Ways.

"IF" we do these things He is faithful to give us what we need to endure all the religious snares and traps out there. But if we refuse to believe in Him enough to follow His instructions, then because of this "unbelief" we will also be cut of as the Mainstream Preachers and those who followed their teaching were cut off in Christ's time.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Please show me the scripture and the context you are referring to.





I agree, Abraham was justified apaert from the deeds or works of the law.


I never said otherwise.


The work that justifies is obedience to what we hear.


That's why it's called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26





By faith means God spoke to us and we obeyed.


It's that simple.





Believe means obey.


  • Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit


22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23




JPT
No, actually believe does not mean obey....obey means obey....are you to dense to understand language and definitions or do you just twist them to fit your false dogma?

be·lieve
bəˈlēv/
verb
  1. 1.
    accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
    "the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
    synonyms:be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Faith is the work of Christ as a labor of His love . Faith is the gift that comes from Christ's work of faith. If we have the faith of Christ in respect to our own selves(James 2:1) then we have blasphemed the holy name by which we are call. (James 2:7)
Peter as the things of men the serial denier, is shown blaspheming the name of God, as the things of God . His blasphemy was forgiven because the presence of the Son of man was there. Today that blasphemy would be against the unseen Holy Spirit, not forgivable.

An object lesson .Peter should of denied his own self in unbelief (no faith) rather than Christ.

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the "things that be of God", but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mathew 16:21-24
False Alert^^^^^Blasphemy of the Spirit is to deny the work of Christ as being from God which is a state of unbelief...a man that will not believe and trust the work of Christ cannot be forgiven....do you guys even study or just whip your dogma out of the religionist's hat of false dogma?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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And there is the very HEART of your error, which also explains why you teach salvation by works. You define believe “as” obey and confuse believe/faith with acts of obedience/works which “follow” and are produced “out of” faith. This is a common error among works-salvationists.
Exactly....and exactly why the Pharisees, works religionists and Cainologists keep peddling works like a street organ player in Bombay.....they cannot be honest with the word, definitions, verb tense, context etc....because to do as much would prove their man made gospels as false as the religion the Moonies pushed is California in the 70's......believe does not mean obey......that is as ridiculous as saying white means black or sun means moon or dog means cat.....ignorant to say the least....!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Today I see at least three on here who peddle the same thing the "plenteous in number peddle" which is a works based false dogma which does not nor will not save.....the MANY boast of their right to enter based upon two things...

a. Their claim to know Jesus
b. Their wonderful works in the name of Jesus

Same thing that most so called churches peddle and same thing many on here peddle.....

Faith plus works to gain, keep, embellish or top of salvation is false, no power to save, double cursed and ALL WHO PEDDLE IT are called either foolish or deceived by Paul......
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Adam and Eve were saved by grace through faith as were everyone from the beginning of time, nothing has changed. It is God who provides the sacrifice and who brought them their clothing as He does for you and I. It is God who provides our sacrifice for sin, and who redeems us from the fall, paradise lost, paradise restored.

The fatal flaw of grace plus works "false gospel", is original sin, "Pride." There is a need to humble yourself and accept that only God has the power to save. A works based gospel is an insult to our God and our Savior Jesus Christ. It is God alone who cloths us with, "garments of salvation", humble yourself and believe.

Genesis3:21
21)
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them

Isaiah61:10
"I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For He has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels."

God bless