Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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More proof you lack understanding of true believers, the types of works and fruit they will ALL POSSESS and the fact that saved people can and do wander, produce bad works and fruit on occasion and still remain eternally secure....more working for I keep myself saved drivel.....!!
I agree with you that saved people can produce bad fruit on occasion, and can repent and come back to the fold, and still remain saved.

So what types of works and fruits will saved people ALL POSSESS? This is a serious question, not trolling.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Not what I said or even implied....man you have serious comprehensive skills.....!
When you say that the true eternally saved believer has already done the work of the Heavenly Father in their act of faith/belief into the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST. It sounds like our works are done as soon as we believe. It sounds like the finished work of Christ is already done. So if the works is finished and done, it seems like nothing is left to do in order to have EL. Is that what you are saying? If not set me straight?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I agree with you that saved people can produce bad fruit on occasion, and can repent and come back to the fold, and still remain saved.

So what types of works and fruits will saved people ALL POSSESS? This is a serious question, not trolling.
So every time a person does not do a good work or produce bad fruit on occasion has to repent to be allowed back into the fold in order to remain saved?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Why do you try so hard to get obedience and love, and works, and keeping the commandments outside the perimeter of being saved? You want to say I believe and the second I believe I am saved. Then and only when I am saved can I be obedient, and love and do good works, and keep the commandments.
Because obedience, love, works, keeping the commandments is the fruit of being saved and not the means of being saved. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (not faith + obedience/works/love/keeping the commandments) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. *Obedience/acts of charity, keeping the commandments (which follows saving faith in Christ) are all WORKS. Now that we have been saved through faith, read on in Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. *We are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works.

But what that really means to me is: I am saved, and there is nothing that can separate me from God and Jesus. So if I do or do not obey or love or do good works or keep the commandments, these things being outside the saved process, therefore my saved position is not affected, and so I am still saved.
Both James and John have made it clear that if we truly have faith and are born of God, then it will be evidenced by love and good works (James 2:14-24; 1 John 2:3; 3:9-10; 4:7 etc..). *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

The only answer back to me is: if after you are saved you do not obey, and love, and do good works, and keep the commandments, you were never saved in the first place. And if that is true, then 80% of Christians have not been saved and will not receive EL.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Decon actually used 90%. How is Christianity doing. Not very well. Or your doctrine in not right?
*There are genuine believers and there are make believers. *There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" (in name only) Christians.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
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When you say that the true eternally saved believer has already done the work of the Heavenly Father in their act of faith/belief into the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST. It sounds like our works are done as soon as we believe. It sounds like the finished work of Christ is already done. So if the works is finished and done, it seems like nothing is left to do in order to have EL. Is that what you are saying? If not set me straight?
Is the finished work of Jesus not already done?

John 19:28-30

It Is Finished
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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Because obedience, love, works, keeping the commandments is the fruit of being saved and not the means of being saved. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (not faith + obedience/works/love/keeping the commandments) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. *Obedience/acts of charity, keeping the commandments (which follows saving faith in Christ) are all WORKS. Now that we have been saved through faith, read on in Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. *We are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works.

Both James and John have made it clear that if we truly have faith and are born of God, then it will be evidenced by love and good works (James 2:14-24; 1 John 2:3; 3:9-10; 4:7 etc..). *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*There are genuine believers and there are make believers. *There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" (in name only) Christians.
What stops nominal Christians from becoming genuine Christians, it makes no sense to me.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,152
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What stops nominal Christians from becoming genuine Christians, it makes no sense to me.
They refuse to repent and believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4).
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
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Because obedience, love, works, keeping the commandments is the fruit of being saved and not the means of being saved. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (not faith + obedience/works/love/keeping the commandments) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. *Obedience/acts of charity, keeping the commandments (which follows saving faith in Christ) are all WORKS. Now that we have been saved through faith, read on in Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. *We are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works.

Both James and John have made it clear that if we truly have faith and are born of God, then it will be evidenced by love and good works (James 2:14-24; 1 John 2:3; 3:9-10; 4:7 etc..). *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*There are genuine believers and there are make believers. *There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" (in name only) Christians.
Do you think with regards to nominal Christians that it's a cultural thing?

The UK in the past was defined as a Christian country.
So people over here were asked about their religion (census every few years) they would say Christian yet the majority have never attended church.

Then we Easter and Christmas and funerals.

A lot more attend as it's the Christian thing to do.

I really do not like the term "Christian"
I used to tell people I'm a Christian but stopped doing so.

I remember speaking to someone once who identified as a Christian.
Yet that person did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,152
10,951
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Do you think with regards to nominal Christians that it's a cultural thing?

The UK in the past was defined as a Christian country.
So people over here were asked about their religion (census every few years) they would say Christian yet the majority have never attended church.

Then we Easter and Christmas and funerals.

A lot more attend as it's the Christian thing to do.

I really do not like the term "Christian"
I used to tell people I'm a Christian but stopped doing so.

I remember speaking to someone once who identified as a Christian.
Yet that person did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
Sadly, there are many "nominal" Christians in the world. Look at all the false religions and cults that call themselves, "Christian." People can call themselves Christian and even be "religious," but not right with God. :(
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
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What stops nominal Christians from becoming genuine Christians, it makes no sense to me.
There is nothing that stops a nominal Christian becoming a a genuine disciple of Jesus, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist and the same for many others in the many religions in our world today.

Nominal is nominal. That's all it is.
Nominal does not save.

Jesus saves, and faith, genuine faith in Jesus saves.
Nothing more or nothing less.

Genuine faith takes us from nominal to a follower of Jesus to a disciple.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
Sadly, there are many "nominal" Christians in the world. Look at all the false religions and cults that call themselves, "Christian." People can call themselves Christian and even be "religious," but not right with God. :(
How funny.

You posted whilst I was typing my post above
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
to those of you who reject we are saved by grace through faith that add onto the gospel when it suits you
and take away from it to build your strawmen

you all seem to try and pervert the gospel in a way where it says Christ is only some prerequisite you need to mentally agree with before you yourself can earn the "reward" of salvation according to your walk.....


prayin for you guys


youre in error
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
There is nothing that stops a nominal Christian becoming a a genuine disciple of Jesus, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist and the same for many others in the many religions in our world today.

Nominal is nominal. That's all it is.
Nominal does not save.

Jesus saves, and faith, genuine faith in Jesus saves.
Nothing more or nothing less.

Genuine faith takes us from nominal to a follower of Jesus to a disciple.
fake christians can become true christians
are we suggesting "fake it till you make it"?

the desire to "make it" comes from God
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
fake christians can become true christians
are we suggesting "fake it till you make it"?

the desire to "make it" comes from God
no

he is saying that someone with a flimsy disingenuous faith that can be walked away from having no trust or confidence (belief) IN Christ

is still able to truely come to Christ and be saved

as is any other person from any other vain belief or religion
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
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fake christians can become true christians
are we suggesting "fake it till you make it"?

the desire to "make it" comes from God
Not at all.

A fake Christian is not a Christian.

The sheep and the goats and those who claimed to have done great in Jesus name to whom Jesus said "I never knew you"

They are fake Christians.

They can take it all they want but on judgement day the only person who will Judge is Jesus. Not us.

As per the parable of the wheat and the tares.

But a so called nominal Christian can become a genuine one.
Seen it my church and walked with one.
Now a genuine beliver.

Will soon start walking with a Hindu who has recently come into our church.
He wants to know more about this man Jesus
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
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Creation, which speaks daily, addresses this truth....it also proves that even good trees that produce good fruit occasionally throws a worm infested or rotten apple to the ground, may or may not produce, is dependent upon the correct moisture, fertilizer and temps (biblical growth AFTER SALVATION) to produce and remains an apple tree after sprouting (birth) throughout it's whole life regardless of production!

The deceitful workers for fail to acknowledge that a true eternally saved believer has already done the work of the Heavenly Father in their act of faith/belief into the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST!
13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


A SERVANT OF GOD HAS A DUTY TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. SERVANTS WERE PREPARED FOR WORKS OF SERVICE FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH


11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.


28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

(Ref: romans 12:1-8)


16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


WE ARE SERVANTS OF WHOM WE OBEY.


EVERY MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE SERVANTS OF GOD WHOM THEY OBEY.


CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH...eph 5:23, col 1:18


IF A BROTHER DELIBERATELY SINS, ARE WE NOT TO EXPEL HIM?


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON.


21 for if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.


30And CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKÑESS: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.(Ref: matthèw 25:45-46)


9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and CAST INTO THE FIRE.


6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.


“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.


14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and ARISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ shall give thee light.


11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: FOR NOW IS OUR SALVATION NEARER THAN WHEN WE (FIRST) BELIEVED.



1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, AND ART DEAD. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.



…”BECAUSE THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY, AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.”(isaiah 5:20-24)


3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4God forbid: yea, LET GOD BE TRUE, but every man a liar; as it is written,

That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings,
And mightest overcome when thou art judged...AMEN
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Not at all.

A fake Christian is not a Christian.

The sheep and the goats and those who claimed to have done great in Jesus name to whom Jesus said "I never knew you"

They are fake Christians.

They can take it all they want but on judgement day the only person who will Judge is Jesus. Not us.

As per the parable of the wheat and the tares.

But a so called nominal Christian can become a genuine one.
Seen it my church and walked with one.
Now a genuine beliver.

Will soon start walking with a Hindu who has recently come into our church.
He wants to know more about this man Jesus
i pray God uses your church to help this man become our new brother

that would make for a lovely testimony and a witness of great value

:D
sounds already like hes on the right track.....

(seeking to know Jesus)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I agree with you that saved people can produce bad fruit on occasion, and can repent and come back to the fold, and still remain saved.

So what types of works and fruits will saved people ALL POSSESS? This is a serious question, not trolling.
No you don't agree with me because the bible does not teach the drivel you peddle....salvation is not losable and I never said nor implied the false bolded part of your quote...