Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,998
10,794
113
55
So we believe Jesus, but do not have to follow in his footsteps and we are saved into his kingdom?
Believers do not follow in the footsteps of Jesus in order to become saved, but because we are saved. It’s part of being a disciple of Jesus.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Is it anti-Christian to quote the words of Christ?

John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

Are His words true or false? If they are true how does this fit into Yah's plan or mercy and redemption?

I'll tell you, Yahshua's blood wipes our sin away it does not empower us to continue in sin.

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin* (#G266), transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

*#G266 hamartian ἁμαρτίαν sin

1 John 5:18, "We know that everyone having been born of YHWH does not sin* (#G264), but the one having been born of YHWH guards himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”

*#G264 hamartanei ἁμαρτάνει, continue to sin
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
but, see, here is your deception-you and others quote 1st John verbatim about command keeping, but you and the other Judeaizers fail to mention that John said, in the same letter , that the commands He is referring to are believe in the name of the Son and love one another. not sabbath keeping. the same John said he was in the Sprit on the Lord's day. he did not say Sabbath, a different greek word is used here.

you also point to John saying that Jesus said " if you love me, keep my commands." you and others wrongly point to the Torah as what Jesus meant. that is not true.

on the mount of transfiguration, God the Father came down and said, in the presence of Moses ( the Law ) and Elijah ( the Prophets ) " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased . Hear HIM!

this means the Words in red. not the Torah. you see, since you and your group deny the truth of Trinity, and push the lie of oneness, this is Scripture ya'll all ignore.

it is so ironic that you go on and on about obedience , yet you and the others refuse to obey the clear instruction of God the Father, and insist on denying the separation of the old and new Covenants. amazing.
OK.

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."





Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."





Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”





Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."





Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,179
17,539
113
No I did ask you to explain the verses I posted that you said I misuse first.

Here, thise verse: John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

Means if we truly have love for Yah WE WILL do what He Commands. This odes not mean we will be 100% perfect, but it does mean we will live in His likeness, I want to add IMO hopefully continually increasing in His path.
1.does it mean we are saved only if we do it
2. How many commands do we have to obey for it to be enough
3.what if i am not perfect? And fall as a prodigal child?



Also you ask:


If you look to the post you are replying to I POSTED THAT EXACT VERSE:
I know you did, asked you t explain what it means. Is it a prerequisite, required to be saved, or a defenition of those saved.

So how are you questioning that Im saying something different than that?
You tell me, what does it mean.
Finally we are saved by YHWH, those who in in Him and have His Spirit will not fight against His Commands but will love them and seek to do them:

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
Ok again, do they do his because they are saved, and can never lose salvation, or do they maintain salvation by doing them?

Can you answer?
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,179
17,539
113
Is it anti-Christian to quote the words of Christ?

John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

Are His words true or false? If they are true how does this fit into Yah's plan or mercy and redemption?

I'll tell you, Yahshua's blood wipes our sin away it does not empower us to continue in sin.

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin* (#G266), transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

*#G266 hamartian ἁμαρτίαν sin

1 John 5:18, "We know that everyone having been born of YHWH does not sin* (#G264), but the one having been born of YHWH guards himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”

*#G264 hamartanei ἁμαρτάνει, continue to sin
Anyone can cut and paste gods word, it does not mean they understand what hose verses say
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Are you saved because you do those things, or do you do those things because your saved.

also. Gods commands are numerous. Its not just the law. the law was given for a purpose. can you agree with paul that that purpose was to bring us to our knees and admit we are sinners?
It's also to show us how we should love Yah and love others:

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

He loves us:
1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

We love Him:
Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
I already said twice today I have sinned sin worthy of death and am thankful for Yah's mercy.

Yet you refuse to answer my questions and still look for reason to accuse. You distract from Scripture and doctrine to make me the bad guy, then there is no need to address Scripture huh?





1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.”

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”
Do you keep the law that you push? Yes or No
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,179
17,539
113
It's also to show us how we should love Yah and love others:

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

He loves us:
1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

We love Him:
Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."
Non of those passages show us how to get saved or stay saved,

They tell us what saved people do.

Can you understand the difference?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Ok again, do they do his because they are saved, and can never lose salvation, or do they maintain salvation by doing them?

Can you answer?
Salvation is given by Yah when Yahshua returns:

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised.”

Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”

None can be "good enough" to be saved by their own works:

Isaiah 64:6 And all of us have become as one unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as soiled rags. And all of us fade like a leaf, and our crookednesses, like the wind, have taken us away."

Isaiah 45:20-25, “Gather yourselves and come; draw near together, you who have escaped from the nations. No knowledge have they who are lifting up the wood of their carved image, and pray to a mighty one that does not save. Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from that time? Is it not I, יהוה? And there is no mighty one besides Me, a righteous Strength and a Savior, there is none besides Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Mighty, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear. One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame. In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’yl shall be declared right and boast.”

Yet YHWH puts His Spirit in those who are His:

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

Those who follow His COmmands stay in Him and those who use mercy for an excuse to sin are burnt:

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Being in Him we can do His will;

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."

Anyone can cut and paste gods word, it does not mean they understand what hose verses say
This is true. Let each person diligently seek YHWH and His truth, for He is the Mighty One.

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Do you keep the law that you push? Yes or No
While I am not 100% without sin, anyone who says they are is a liar:

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

Yes I do walk within Yah's Laws as the guides for my life, why because He guides me to this:

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

YAH IS JUDGE I TRUST HE WILL MAKE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT..

Is this passage evil or banned to quote or does my quoting this call for accusation?
John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Maybe you only accept Paul's writing?

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law*!"

Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"

Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

John shows the difference between sinning and living a life of sin:

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin* (#G266), transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."





*#G266 hamartian ἁμαρτίαν sin





1 John 5:18, "We know that everyone having been born of YHWH does not sin* (#G264), but the one having been born of YHWH guards himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”





*#G264 hamartanei ἁμαρτάνει, continue to sin
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,256
4,198
113
Just do a litle test on your congregation. Ask if a person thinks they are saved, and then asses if they obey the Lord? You will find that 80% of the people that say they are saved will also admit that they do not obey the Lord in all things.
. . .
That makes them a NORMAL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN, we strive to obey, but WE ARE NOT PERFECT.

YOU DO NOT OBEY THE LORD IN ALL THINGS!

I have proven that to you MANY TIMES.


1 Peter 2:13-15 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--









1534367459737.jpeg





You may say, "RULES ARE MADE TO BE BROKEN", but GOD SAYS IT IS HIS WILL THAT YOU KEEP THEM.

NO HOW PERFECT ARE YOU ? ? ?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,998
10,794
113
55
While I am not 100% without sin, anyone who says they are is a liar:

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."
Amen to that! Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,179
17,539
113
Salvation is given by Yah when Yahshua returns:

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised.”

Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”

None can be "good enough" to be saved by their own works:

Isaiah 64:6 And all of us have become as one unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as soiled rags. And all of us fade like a leaf, and our crookednesses, like the wind, have taken us away."

Isaiah 45:20-25, “Gather yourselves and come; draw near together, you who have escaped from the nations. No knowledge have they who are lifting up the wood of their carved image, and pray to a mighty one that does not save. Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from that time? Is it not I, יהוה? And there is no mighty one besides Me, a righteous Strength and a Savior, there is none besides Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Mighty, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear. One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame. In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’yl shall be declared right and boast.”

Yet YHWH puts His Spirit in those who are His:

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

Those who follow His COmmands stay in Him and those who use mercy for an excuse to sin are burnt:

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Being in Him we can do His will;

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."



This is true. Let each person diligently seek YHWH and His truth, for He is the Mighty One.

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."
See there you go, again you proved me right

You say he who endures till the end

Thats works dude, no matter how you try to spin it, enduring is a work, trying to earn a reward, not freely recieving a gift,

This is all the proof i need, you taking the word of god out of context does not probve you right, enduring to the end is not speaking of eternal life, its talking about being alive when christ returns. Your tryi g to earn your salvation b enduring, why are you fighting what you believe, own it man, stop trying to be deceptive, then getting mad when people call you out,
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Amen to that! Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness.
The easiest way for me to view it is, I am supposed to be like Yahshua, when I mkae the comparison I see that I fall very sort. Yet I want to be more and more like Him, and Scripture says He will put His Spirit in us to be like Him. The way I see it, it is like a snowball effect:

He puts His Spirit in us:

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

causes us to desire His way, thus seeking to walk in it and have the Strength to.

Ezekiel 11:19-21, “And I shall give them one heart, and put a new spirit within you. And I shall take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, so that they walk in My laws, and guard My right-rulings, and shall do them. And they shall be My people and I shall be their Strength. But to those whose hearts walk after the heart of their disgusting matters and their abominations, I shall recompense their deeds on their own heads,” declares the Master יהוה.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”