Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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If youre a seasomed christian you understand that one doesnt do "right works" all the time..we get tempted..we sin..we might even choose to go our own way lile the prodigal son did but we still dont lose our salvation..by our "fruits" you will know them..not by ones continued "good works"

This is simplifying it a bit..but lile a marriage..you LOVE each other so you WANT to do what pleases the other ..that DOESNT mean we dont have times of selfishness..umgreatfulness amd less than appreciative etc. However..our covenant of marriage is still in tact..just bevause i dont comstantly DO what pleases my spouse doesnt mean i dont love them and am not married...

Understand?
If you are a new person in Jesus and have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you will be doing his work, and the work of Jesus is to take care of the poor and needy, etc. IOW good works. What do you think it means that "by their fruits ye may know them. Fruits are the product of good works that produce fruit. Don't fight me on good works. We do good works because we want to, not to gain EL, but because of our love of Jesus. You are kicking against the pricks to not be willing to do good works for Jesus.

If the prodical son had not repented of his sins and come back to the father he would have been lost and not recieved what the father had. IOW he would not have EL. The story ends nicely and he did repent and he did come back and he did recieve EL.
But all stories do not end well.

Your marriage story forgets that 50% of marriages fail to abide the covenant and therefore the covenant is broken and this is just like in real spiritual life. If you break your covenant with God and you do not repent and come back, you will lose your EL.

Jesus teaches us in the bible that "every branch IN ME that does not produce fruit will be taken away". (John 15:1-2)
This proves that OSAS is just not a true doctrine.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,261
4,202
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I began to get interested in politics when they affected my education and finances, otherwise I haven't given a rats tail since Nixon got away.
I personally think a Christian should be interested in Politics. Here is why?


Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


How can Democrats support Obstructionism and remain ever Hating Trump, and still call themselves Christians ? ? ?

Just my personal opinion.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,270
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I was just looking at your words. You have me mixed up with another poster. I am 73 and was baptized at 6. I grew up in the faith and never knew another way. I have been an elder and deacon in 3 Reformed theology churches. Moved twice. Getting ready to move again next year so who knows I might be an officer in the new church.
Ok..lets make this clear..im not a newbie christian..ive been one for 46 yrs NOR am i a wolf in sheeps clothing just bevause i was thinking amd contemplatimg your original post the i THINK you took me as being SARCASTIC or totally DIDNT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON..I think its the latter!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,261
4,202
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I have run into a handful of letter carriers from the Post Office where I work after they retired over the last few years and they ALL have no regrets and look happier than I have ever seen them! One such letter carrier who I NEVER once saw smile at work was all smiles when I ran into him after he retired. One of the other letter carriers said they felt like they "had just been paroled" after they retired and yet another said, "life is so much better outside those prison walls!" :giggle:
And a NIGHTMARE, is when I dream that I still am working there.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,274
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Where did you come up with 46 years a Christian? I have posted several times I'm 73 and grew up in the faith. Was baptized at 6 by immersion. They refused to baptize me until after a lengthy question and answer session where they tried to trip me up. I have been a Christian as long as I can remember. Never knew anything else. Have looked around at other religions and reject them. Too much science on the side of Christianity. Koran for example tells about only 1 city and archaeological digs proved it false. Archaeological multitudinous digs on the other hand prove the Bible as factual. Sodom and Jericho digs prove the Biblical miracles. As an expert in electronics and computers scientific facts mean a lot to me. Phylosophical arguments leave me scratching my head.
I think Jewel was either referring to herself.
If she was referring to you then maybe she had seen you post about being 73.

Maybe think before you jump off at the deep end.

You posted your age a good few posts after Jewel mentioned 46.

So me thinks she was referring to herself.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Sigh..is your memory failing..you suggested i was a new christian or a wolf in sheeps clothing..to which i responded that im a christian at 46 yrs (ME NOT YOU) so im not a newbie and i was homestly think bout your post that i think YOU TOOK as sarcastic but forget the whole deal n move on..lol. You onviously havent read the postz im refering to or the proceeding on ..:(
You must have been typing as I was.
Sorry to duplicate.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
No offense, but you don't know what you are talking about....and most of what you said does not pass the smell test!
No offense taken, thank you.
But which part does not pass your smell test? Is it the part that the Holy Spirit says to be engaged in good works?
Tell which part does not pass?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,260
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Ok..lets make this clear..im not a newbie christian..ive been one for 46 yrs NOR am i a wolf in sheeps clothing just bevause i was thinking amd contemplatimg your original post the i THINK you took me as being SARCASTIC or totally DIDNT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON..I think its the latter!
Hi Jewel, everybody here is oso happy you aren't one of them wolf n' sheeps clothing, what a relief that is for sure, :cry::):(:cry:

God bless!
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,470
113
Anaheim, Cali.
I personally think a Christian should be interested in Politics. Here is why?


Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


How can Democrats support Obstructionism and remain ever Hating Trump, and still call themselves Christians ? ? ?

Just my personal opinion.


Let me addressing the last part first. Hatred of someone is not Christian at all. The the old brick and bible theology. "Believe in the bible or I'll hit you with this brick!" If I were unsaved I'd run away. Depending upon how crazy they seem, I might still get far away.

Since the disciples are supposed to be our role models as Christians, is submission to authority what got Steven stoned, Peter crucified upside down and John left to starve on a deserted island? What about those thousands of early Christians fed to lions for the amusement of hoards of drunken Romans? Languages change through time faster than printers can change dictionary's. The examples set forth by deeds done for Christ's sake will never change!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,274
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This is how we discern the wolves in sheep's clothing. Here is James on the subject. Why do so many ignore this scripture about the place works has. The concept is works defines faith. No works no faith. James uses deeds for works.
I can't see how this relates wolves in sheep's clothing.
James is talking about faith and how works correspond the genuine saving faith.

Matthew 7:15

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
(Matt. 12:33; Luke 6:43–45)
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Romans 16:17-19

17 And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. 18 Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people. 19 But everyone knows that you are obedient to the Lord. This makes me very happy. I want you to be wise in doing right and to stay innocent of any wrong.

2 Peter 2:1-3
3. The Danger of False Teachers (2:1-22)
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

Just a few verses concerning wolves.
False prophets, false teachers, no interest in serving Jesus, they deny Jesus, self seeking, money lovers, teach shameful immorality.

Are the people James is addressing doing this?

I don't think so, if I'm missing it please correct me.

James

James 2:1-8
4. Poverty and Generosity (2:1-26)
A Warning against Prejudice
1 My dear brothers and sisters, how can you claim to have faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ if you favor some people over others?
2 For example, suppose someone comes into your meeting dressed in fancy clothes and expensive jewelry, and another comes in who is poor and dressed in dirty clothes. 3 If you give special attention and a good seat to the rich person, but you say to the poor one, “You can stand over there, or else sit on the floor”—well,4 doesn’t this discrimination show that your judgments are guided by evil motives?
5 Listen to me, dear brothers and sisters. Hasn’t God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith? Aren’t they the ones who will inherit the Kingdom he promised to those who love him? 6 But you dishonor the poor! Isn’t it the rich who oppress you and drag you into court? 7 Aren’t they the ones who slander Jesus Christ, whose noble name you bear?
8 Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:14-17
Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing,16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

James is addressing the issue to his dear brothers and sisters. Notice that.
He is saying to those who have much you favour those who do not.
They are needy and poor.
You can help them but actually you do not.
So dear brothers and sisters, you are rich but do not help and say you faith in Jesus then you are being like Jesus, there is no evidence.
By evidence then we see real faith.

If they were wolves he would not have called them dear brothers and sisters.
He would have called them wolves.

To me in a sense "Are you a sheep or a goat?

The sheep called Jesus lord, he parised them for doing.
The goats were rejected because they did not do, "Lord when did we see?
Yet Jesus rejected them because he never knew them.
Therefore no faith, no relationship, no outworking of it.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,082
15,020
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I have neither the patience or interest to go pixel by pixel. I earned a living for years with an N65 & 75 now an amateur can do better faster with a $150.00 digital, and a lap top:(
I worked pixel by pixel when I did not know what I was doing LOL. I really haven't had any training in image making, being self taught. In my job I am a printer, and do a little bit of photoshop work, though that is mostly done by others. I am relied upon for my eye for color :) 42 years experience helps:giggle: I started my first lab job on my 21st birthday! I was not a believer at the time, but I have always credited the Spirit of the Universe (Whom I now know as the One True God) for my career. It is the only thing I knew I wanted to do professionally :D

I suspect N65 is a camera (had to look it up to be sure ;)) Were you a photographer, then?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,274
4,004
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Love = good works.
And good works should be done out of love.

Although if I'm honest sometimes it's hard.

Matthew 5:46-48
46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much.47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that.48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

"If you love me? As Jesus said.

Even Peter had to move from Phileo to Agape.

It's a process.
The Holy Spirit increasing in us and ourselves decreasing.

Conforming us to the image of Jesus.

I would also say giving my experience, we do not necessarily have to like a person to extend love.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,082
15,020
113
And good works should be done out of love.

Although if I'm honest sometimes it's hard.
Sometimes? How about, most of the time? Yeah, for me it is hard most of the time. I have to lay down my wants and desires and inclinations and allow Jesus to direct my steps. Thank you, Jesus, for showing me a better way :)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,274
4,004
113
I personally think a Christian should be interested in Politics. Here is why?


Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


How can Democrats support Obstructionism and remain ever Hating Trump, and still call themselves Christians ? ? ?

Just my personal opinion.
I got slated on any website for posting the above verses.
Someone who was a Christian was asked to be the best man of a friend and wanted to know whether he should be the best man.
It was a same sex marriage.

Someone replied and said no as homosexuality is not acceptable.

So I posted the above verses to say that it is because the law of the land says it is.
Boy did he go at me. Accused me of promoting same sex marriage based on those verse and if I was a Christian then why would I promote it.

After a few posts between us I had to point out it was acceptable because the law says it is.

I also had to point out in a previous post that even though the law says it's acceptable before God it is not and I for one do not condone it but we can express our opinions.

He just saw those verses and rejected every other post.

The truth is given such issues as above, along with abortion have/will become acceptable under the law of the land.

Ireland recently passed a law accepting abortion, India recently has accepted homosexuality.

The difference is that in Roman times people did not have a vote.
Today we do.

Maybe we as belivers will come to point where we cannot vote because all government are promoting the same thing.

What I find interesting is the verses you quoted 5-7

It's talking about taxes.
What's your thoughts on this as it follows on from 1-4.

Does it relate "Give unto Ceaser?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,628
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I got slated on any website for posting the above verses.
Someone who was a Christian was asked to be the best man of a friend and wanted to know whether he should be the best man.
It was a same sex marriage.

Someone replied and said no as homosexuality is not acceptable.

So I posted the above verses to say that it is because the law of the land says it is.
Boy did he go at me. Accused me of promoting same sex marriage based on those verse and if I was a Christian then why would I promote it.

After a few posts between us I had to point out it was acceptable because the law says it is.

I also had to point out in a previous post that even though the law says it's acceptable before God it is not and I for one do not condone it but we can express our opinions.

He just saw those verses and rejected every other post.

The truth is given such issues as above, along with abortion have/will become acceptable under the law of the land.

Ireland recently passed a law accepting abortion, India recently has accepted homosexuality.

The difference is that in Roman times people did not have a vote.
Today we do.

Maybe we as belivers will come to point where we cannot vote because all government are promoting the same thing.

What I find interesting is the verses you quoted 5-7

It's talking about taxes.
What's your thoughts on this as it follows on from 1-4.

Does it relate "Give unto Ceaser?
We should rather obey God than men. That chapter in romans does not justify violating God's commandments. You are right we may not be able to vote for anything soon. Things seem to be going that way fast, especially in Europe.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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These Verses seem to describe them all:


2 Timothy 3:5-7 (NKJV)
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


In my opinion, I think they have Trusted in themselves for part of their Salvation, and thereby have definitely bypassed establishing a deep heart filled personal relationship when HIM, trusting in HIM TOTALLY.

I personally think one will have to TOTALLY TRUST HIM FOR ALL OF YOUR SALVATION, thereby inheriting HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Philippians 1:6 (NIV)
6 being confident of this, that HE who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


That does not negate Showing our LOVE for HIM by our Loving Obedience, which we could NOT DO if HE had NOT ALREADY SAVED US, as a Gift of GOD.
If the above verses are not descriptive of modern so called working for Christian religions then the sky is falling........it accurately describes the false gospels that the Cainologists, workers for and Law keepers peddle.....a claim to know Jesus and part of the salvation process is blended with works to gain or keep our ticket into the kingdom.... Galatians is clear....faith plus works to finish off salvation is no gospel of God, nor does it have any power, is double cursed and all who believe it are deceived and foolish!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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No offense taken, thank you.
But which part does not pass your smell test? Is it the part that the Holy Spirit says to be engaged in good works?
Tell which part does not pass?
The part that blends works with faith to gain, keep, top off or finish salvation. The part that states salvation is not a current possession, the part that states salvation can be lost.......pretty much everything you stand for because your theology is built on the above fallacies!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,274
4,004
113
Sometimes? How about, most of the time? Yeah, for me it is hard most of the time. I have to lay down my wants and desires and inclinations and allow Jesus to direct my steps. Thank you, Jesus, for showing me a better way :)
Amen.

Thank you Jesus.
It is you who directs our steps
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,274
4,004
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We should rather obey God than men. That chapter in romans does not justify violating God's commandments. You are right we may not be able to vote for anything soon. Things seem to be going that way fast, especially in Europe.
Not just Europe.

The thing is that in Roman times what was acceptable is still the same today, and in countries where it was not they are now reverting to it