Not By Works

[Argueless]

What do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

The Gospel is not just a biography or history of the life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ but it is also the fulfillment of all things prophesied and written in the books of the prophets and the law about the Messiah or the Christ.

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.John 21:25

...Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.1 Corinthians 15:1-8

The Gospel is also about the preaching and teachings of Christ that we are told to OBEY and take heed of the warnings thereof.

...From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” Matthew 4:17

...Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-17

...He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

...For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the Gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

.. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 5:6

 

[mailmandan]

The Gospel is not just a biography or history of the life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ but it is also the fulfillment of all things prophesied and written in the books of the prophets and the law about the Messiah or the Christ.

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. .John 21:25

It sounds to me like you basically believe the entire Bible is the gospel.

...Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.1 Corinthians 15:1-8

We can see from 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 that the gospel or "good news" is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Paul said in Romans 1:16 that he is not ashamed of the gospel and that it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. I NEVER hear you state that. The gospel that you are preaching sounds like a faith + works gospel.

The Gospel is also about the preaching and teachings of Christ that we are told to OBEY and take heed of the warnings thereof.

This is where you turn the gospel into salvation by works. Don't confuse the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)with "everything" that is written in the 4 gospel accounts - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. You could never OBEY - "be obedient enough" to earn your salvation. Salvation by works is a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

...From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” Matthew 4:17

Jesus sent the twelve to preach the "good news" of the kingdom to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not preaching anything yet about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. *We can discuss Galatians 1:11-12 and Ephesians 3:1-9 if you would like.

...Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-17

So the gospel that you are preaching is salvation by obeying the commandments? Have you PERFECTLY obeyed ALL of the commandments? Be honest.

In Matthew 19, Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). Yet the rich young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (verses 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. Instead, Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young man the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

...He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

...For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the Gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

I often hear works-salvationists write a blank check with the word "obey" in verses such as these above, then fill in whatever amount of commands they feel are necessary to "obey" in order to receive salvation by works, but that is not what's being discussed in those verses. *In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” As you can see, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Those who have not obeyed the gospel are those who refuse to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and are instead, trusting in works for salvation.

.. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13

Amen! Those who believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. Praise God!

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 5:6

This is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS. Ephesians 2:1 - And you He made alive, who were (past tense) dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were (past tense) dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), - *(present tense, no longer sons of disobedience)* 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[BillG]

In Matthew 19, Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). Yet the rich young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (verses 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If memory serves me was not the thought at the time if you were rich or wealthy then this was a sign that God was blessing you and looking upon you with favour.

If not then you were cursed by God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If memory serves me was not the thought at the time if you were rich or wealthy then this was a sign that God was blessing you and looking upon you with favour.

If not then you were cursed by God.

I think many believe that.....I have heard people tie someone's level of spirituality to the kind of car they drive......funny thing....JESUS was DIRT poor yet OWNED it ALL..................!!!

 

[mailmandan]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If memory serves me was not the thought at the time if you were rich or wealthy then this was a sign that God was blessing you and looking upon you with favour.

If not then you were cursed by God.

Following his encounter with the rich young man, Jesus makes the comment that it's easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the kingdom. His disciples were shocked and asked, “Who then can be saved?” (Matthew 19:25). In other words, “If not a rich man, then there’s no hope for anyone else?” In a culture where wealth was presumed to be an indication of God’s favor and blessing, Jesus’ assertion was clear. Wealth is not a sign of God’s favor.

 

[Argueless]

It sounds to me like you basically believe the entire Bible is the gospel.

We can see from 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 that the gospel or "good news" is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Paul said in Romans 1:16 that he is not ashamed of the gospel and that it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. I NEVER hear you state that. The gospel that you are preaching sounds like a faith + works gospel.

This is where you turn the gospel into salvation by works. Don't confuse the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)with "everything" that is written in the 4 gospel accounts - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. You could never OBEY - "be obedient enough" to earn your salvation. Salvation by works is a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Jesus sent the twelve to preach the "good news" of the kingdom to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not preaching anything yet about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. *We can discuss Galatians 1:11-12 and Ephesians 3:1-9 if you would like.

So the gospel that you are preaching is salvation by obeying the commandments? Have you PERFECTLY obeyed ALL of the commandments? Be honest.

In Matthew 19, Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). Yet the rich young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (verses 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. Instead, Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young man the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

I often hear works-salvationists write a blank check with the word "obey" in verses such as these above, then fill in whatever amount of commands they feel are necessary to "obey" in order to receive salvation by works, but that is not what's being discussed in those verses. *In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” As you can see, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Those who have not obeyed the gospel are those who refuse to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and are instead, trusting in works for salvation.

Amen! Those who believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. Praise God!

This is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS. Ephesians 2:1 - And you He made alive, who were (past tense) dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were (past tense) dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), - *(present tense, no longer sons of disobedience)* 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ok thank you for your interesting view and edifying remarks if there is.

You see that putting aside obedience to God's commands and stressing out that Faith ALONE saves without the works of obedience or any sort of righteous works is either ignorance (I'm sorry for the word) or deception based on scriptures.

I'm sorry but I don't believe man made doctrines but I believe the verses you have quoted and I have no intention to twist them but I'd rather believe them like a little child who HUMBLY accepts the WORD planted in his heart.

It is the intention of the deceiver to create strife, confussion and DIVISION in the Church.

A Call to Persevere
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:17-19 (see also James 2:26)

Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?


Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?


Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?


Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?


Who then causes another person to sin?


...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9


...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6

 

[BillG]

I think many believe that.....I have heard people tie someone's level of spirituality to the kind of car they drive......funny thing....JESUS was DIRT poor yet OWNED it ALL..................!!!

That is so true.

I remember when I led a group.
We looked at the commands of Jesus.

I think it relates to what you have said above.

I'm gonna paste it here.

I'm open to critique from you.
It's a bit long but here goes

Mark 12:13-17



13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?” But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied. 17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

The Pharisees wanted to do more than trap Jesus. They wanted to see him killed for his response. But, they were cowards and didn’t go.So, they sent “their disciples” and the Herodians.The Pharisees despised them because they supported Rome, but would cooperate with them whenever it suited them.
The Herodians held political power and they supported the Herods, and therefore, indirectly, Rome. So, the two groups hated each other because to the Pharisees the Herodians compromised the Jewish nation and to the Herodians the Pharisee's were heretical......but, the two groups were united in their hatred of Jesus. The Romans wouldn’t believe the Pharisee's accusation of Jesus, because the Romans knew the Pharisees hated them. They needed pro-Roman witnesses to testify that Jesus was an insurrectionist. The Herodians were more than happy to go along.


Emperor Tiberius was reigning at the time of Christ. He was a pedophile, a sexual deviant, a murderer, and he enslaved millions of people. Tiberius claimed to be the worshipful son of a god. He was despised by the Jews because he claimed to be a god. His portrait was on a coin which would probably have been a Denaruis.

The coin was the Tiberian Denarius

A denarius was roughly a day’s wages for a common labourer. The front of the coin depicts Tiberius crowned with the laurels of victory and divinity. Above is an abbreviation, “TI CAESAR DIVI AUG F AUGUSTUS,” which translates to, “Tiberius Caesar, Worshipful Son of the God, Augustus.” On the other side sits the Roman goddess of peace, Pax, and around her is the abbreviation, “Pontif Maxim” which means, “High Priest.

This coin was hated by the Jews as the very first commandment forbids the worship of anyone or anything but God, which included the crafting of any image of a false god, such as that on the coin.

I think there is a reason why Jesus asked for the coin. This episode took place in the Temple. Jesus asked for a coin because by producing it, the Pharisee’s disciples and Herodians revealed their own religious hypocrisy. If they had a coin then they bought into the sacred space of the Temple.

The trap.

If Jesus would have said "yes"then he would be seen to be supporting Rome and therefore turn the Jews against him.

If Jesus says "no" then he would have been considered and enemy of Rome and would have been killed for saying so.
In either case, he would have likely been killed but Jesus immediately recognises the trap, and exposes the hypocrisy of His interrogators.

THE NON-ANSWER
"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

Jesus does not answer the question directly. Remember the trap, if he said yes or no then he is bang to rights so instead he answers the question with another one.
"Whose image is stamped on the coin? To which they replied "Caesar's"

Using their reply we find Jesus saying "Then give to Caesar what's his"

Imagine the Son of God holding this coin, the coin that depicted Tiberius as a god who commanded the allegiance of all under his domain. God in the flesh is holding this coin.
So in effect Jesus is saying "if this coin is his then give it back to him"
Then Jesus says "Give back to God the things that are God's"

Now he has narrowed the focus what belongs to who? What belongs to Caesar give it to him and by the way now I have your focus; give to God what's his.

This sent them packing, with no reply and no charges to bring.
So what is God's?

In the Hebrew tradition, everything rightfully belonged to God.
The Jewish people were to dedicate the first-fruits, that first portion of any harvest and the first-born of any animal, to God. By giving God the first-fruits, the Jewish people acknowledged that all good things came from God and that all things, in turn, belonged to God. God even declares, "Mine is the silver and mine the gold."

So you see everything belongs to God! The heavens, the earth and all that is on the earth.

Our souls belong to God, he created us.

If everything belongs to God what belongs to Caesar? NOTHING

So Jesus is saying "If you believe in God then everything is his then nothing belongs to Caesar, if you don't believe in God then give him the coin that bears his image"
Jesus is in effect challenging the Jews as to where there allegiance lies, is it with God or Rome"

So as believers what is ours and what is God's? Everything we have is God's
The money I have is God's, the car I have is God's, the house I live in is God's, and the list could go on.

Everything we have been given is God's, what he has given us lets be thankful, acknowledge that it's from him and when we have the opportunity use what we have to show God's love to people by blessing them.

The Greek word translated “render” is ‘apodidomi’ which means “to give back.”.
“Jesus looked at the coin and said, “Sure, that looks like his image. He think's it’s his. Go ahead, give him back what you think is his coin! But, by the way, actually everything belongs to God!”

 

[J70x7]

Matthew 10:22
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall PERSEVERE UNTO THE END, he shall be saved.

 

[J70x7]

____________________________________
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall PERSEVERE TO THE END, he shall be saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Ok thank you for your interesting view and edifying remarks if there is.

My pleasure.

You see that putting aside obedience to God's commands and stressing out that Faith ALONE saves without the works of obedience or any sort of righteous works is either ignorance (I'm sorry for the word) or deception based on scriptures.

Works of obedience are the FRUIT, but not the root of salvation. Did Paul say saved by grace through faith "and works of obedience" in Ephesians 2:8,9? NO. Too the contrary, he said saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. In Titus 3:5, Paul made it clear that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done (did you see that?) but according to His mercy He saves us.. Likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. How much clearer can it get? *Also see Romans 4:2-6.

I'm sorry but I don't believe man made doctrines but I believe the verses you have quoted and I have no intention to twist them but I'd rather believe them like a little child who HUMBLY accepts the WORD planted in his heart.

Teaching salvation by works is twisting those scriptures and is not humbly accepting the word as a little child. In Matthew 18:3, "unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven," this is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the simple, helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Like children, they have no achievements and no accomplishments to offer or commend themselves with. Jesus is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are children. Children have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Jesus calls us to have the same kind of trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdon in their own strength. We are 100% dependent on Jesus to save us.

It is the intention of the deceiver to create strife, confussion and DIVISION in the Church.

Yes it is.

A Call to Persevere
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:17-19 (see also James 2:26)

In verse 4, these people who are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *Also void of the Spirit (vs. 19) - UNBELIEVERS.

Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?

There is nothing wrong with teaching obedience to God. The problem is when people pervert the gospel by teaching "salvation by works" and call that obedience to God.

Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?

There are many unbelievers in the world who are "religious, but not right with God" who attend various false religions and cults and are deceived into believing that they truly are believers. I grew up in such a church, surrounded by false teachers.

Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?

I don't condemn obedience to God, but the Bible condemns perverting the gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?

Who then causes another person to sin?

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6

Not sure what point you are trying to make here, but this is not the issue with me. You sound really confused.

 

[J70x7]

_______________
Hebbrews 12:7
PERSEVERE UNDER DISCIPLINE. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct?

 

[J70x7]

Galations 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA.
__________________________________ ______________

 

[dcontroversal]

That is so true.

I remember when I led a group.
We looked at the commands of Jesus.

I think it relates to what you have said above.

I'm gonna paste it here.

I'm open to critique from you.
It's a bit long but here goes

Mark 12:13-17



13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?” But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied. 17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

The Pharisees wanted to do more than trap Jesus. They wanted to see him killed for his response. But, they were cowards and didn’t go.So, they sent “their disciples” and the Herodians.The Pharisees despised them because they supported Rome, but would cooperate with them whenever it suited them.
The Herodians held political power and they supported the Herods, and therefore, indirectly, Rome. So, the two groups hated each other because to the Pharisees the Herodians compromised the Jewish nation and to the Herodians the Pharisee's were heretical......but, the two groups were united in their hatred of Jesus. The Romans wouldn’t believe the Pharisee's accusation of Jesus, because the Romans knew the Pharisees hated them. They needed pro-Roman witnesses to testify that Jesus was an insurrectionist. The Herodians were more than happy to go along.


Emperor Tiberius was reigning at the time of Christ. He was a pedophile, a sexual deviant, a murderer, and he enslaved millions of people. Tiberius claimed to be the worshipful son of a god. He was despised by the Jews because he claimed to be a god. His portrait was on a coin which would probably have been a Denaruis.

The coin was the Tiberian Denarius

A denarius was roughly a day’s wages for a common labourer. The front of the coin depicts Tiberius crowned with the laurels of victory and divinity. Above is an abbreviation, “TI CAESAR DIVI AUG F AUGUSTUS,” which translates to, “Tiberius Caesar, Worshipful Son of the God, Augustus.” On the other side sits the Roman goddess of peace, Pax, and around her is the abbreviation, “Pontif Maxim” which means, “High Priest.

This coin was hated by the Jews as the very first commandment forbids the worship of anyone or anything but God, which included the crafting of any image of a false god, such as that on the coin.

I think there is a reason why Jesus asked for the coin. This episode took place in the Temple. Jesus asked for a coin because by producing it, the Pharisee’s disciples and Herodians revealed their own religious hypocrisy. If they had a coin then they bought into the sacred space of the Temple.

The trap.

If Jesus would have said "yes"then he would be seen to be supporting Rome and therefore turn the Jews against him.

If Jesus says "no" then he would have been considered and enemy of Rome and would have been killed for saying so.
In either case, he would have likely been killed but Jesus immediately recognises the trap, and exposes the hypocrisy of His interrogators.

THE NON-ANSWER
"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

Jesus does not answer the question directly. Remember the trap, if he said yes or no then he is bang to rights so instead he answers the question with another one.
"Whose image is stamped on the coin? To which they replied "Caesar's"

Using their reply we find Jesus saying "Then give to Caesar what's his"

Imagine the Son of God holding this coin, the coin that depicted Tiberius as a god who commanded the allegiance of all under his domain. God in the flesh is holding this coin.
So in effect Jesus is saying "if this coin is his then give it back to him"
Then Jesus says "Give back to God the things that are God's"

Now he has narrowed the focus what belongs to who? What belongs to Caesar give it to him and by the way now I have your focus; give to God what's his.

This sent them packing, with no reply and no charges to bring.
So what is God's?

In the Hebrew tradition, everything rightfully belonged to God.
The Jewish people were to dedicate the first-fruits, that first portion of any harvest and the first-born of any animal, to God. By giving God the first-fruits, the Jewish people acknowledged that all good things came from God and that all things, in turn, belonged to God. God even declares, "Mine is the silver and mine the gold."

So you see everything belongs to God! The heavens, the earth and all that is on the earth.

Our souls belong to God, he created us.

If everything belongs to God what belongs to Caesar? NOTHING

So Jesus is saying "If you believe in God then everything is his then nothing belongs to Caesar, if you don't believe in God then give him the coin that bears his image"
Jesus is in effect challenging the Jews as to where there allegiance lies, is it with God or Rome"

So as believers what is ours and what is God's? Everything we have is God's
The money I have is God's, the car I have is God's, the house I live in is God's, and the list could go on.

Everything we have been given is God's, what he has given us lets be thankful, acknowledge that it's from him and when we have the opportunity use what we have to show God's love to people by blessing them.

The Greek word translated “render” is ‘apodidomi’ which means “to give back.”.
“Jesus looked at the coin and said, “Sure, that looks like his image. He think's it’s his. Go ahead, give him back what you think is his coin! But, by the way, actually everything belongs to God!”

VERY GOOD brother.........it reminds me of when I drive anywhere...Missouri has a lot of cattle and open fields......I look upon the cattle and ALWAYS think....ARE not the cattle upon a 1000 hills mine saith the Lord.

EVERYTHING we have, including the very air we breathe and every breath belongs to GOD......<---the breath of every living thing is in the hand of GOD the bible states....

The above you posted i really good migo.....I really enjoyed it....and you brought out some points I have never considered.....see...old dogs can learn new tricks

 

[Argueless]

My pleasure.

Works of obedience are the FRUIT, but not the root of salvation. Did Paul say saved by grace through faith "and works of obedience" in Ephesians 2:8,9? NO. Too the contrary, he said saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. In Titus 3:5, Paul made it clear that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done (did you see that?) but according to His mercy He saves us.. Likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. How much clearer can it get? *Also see Romans 4:2-6.

Teaching salvation by works is twisting those scriptures and is not humbly accepting the word as a little child. In Matthew 18:3, "unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven," this is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the simple, helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Like children, they have no achievements and no accomplishments to offer or commend themselves with. Jesus is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are children. Children have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Jesus calls us to have the same kind of trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdon in their own strength. We are 100% dependent on Jesus to save us.

Yes it is.

In verse 4, these people who are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *Also void of the Spirit (vs. 19) - UNBELIEVERS.

There is nothing wrong with teaching obedience to God. The problem is when people pervert the gospel by teaching "salvation by works" and call that obedience to God.

There are many unbelievers in the world who are "religious, but not right with God" who attend various false religions and cults and are deceived into believing that they truly are believers. I grew up in such a church, surrounded by false teachers.

I don't condemn obedience to God, but the Bible condemns perverting the gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

"Not sure what point you are trying to make here, but this is not the issue with me. You sound really confused."

How can you run out of interpretation when you seem to have received a FRESH revelation from God where the scripture seems to be obsolete and everything should be replaced by your own words. Really interesting and I'm starting to enjoy it.

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-13

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19




Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.


The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.


Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?




So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

 

[J70x7]

Galations 1:9
As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA.
____________________________ ___________

 

[mailmandan]

"Not sure what point you are trying to make here, but this is not the issue with me. You sound really confused."

How can you run out of interpretation when you seem to have received a FRESH revelation from God where the scripture seems to be obsolete and everything should be replaced by your own words. Really interesting and I'm starting to enjoy it.

Starting to enjoy it? Now you quote scriptures below of condemnation and direct them at me? Your true colors are obvious.

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-13

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

You are confusing me with the Pharisees and scribes in Mark 7:6-13. Unlike these misguided teachers of the law, my faith (belief, trust, reliance) rests completely in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

It's no surprise to see people turn away from the faith that they once professed to have. You sound very cynical and quick to condemn.

In Matthew 24:24, Robertson said - These charlatans will be so skilful that they will, if possible (ei dunaton), lead astray the very elect. The implication is that it is not possible. If I say "if possible" I will be at your house today by noon. Meaning it is possible that I will, but depending on the traffic or the weather, I may not. Now if I say, "if it were possible" I would have been to your house by noon, then it was not possible. Notice that the KJV translation says, "if it were possible" and the NIV says, "if that were possible." See the difference?

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

Everything with you is about deception and salvation by works and you can't see the irony in that? The "disobedient" is not descriptive of believers (Ephesians 2:1-9). Don't confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture.

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

That wasn't the end of humanity because of Adam and Eve. We have a Savior! Praise God!

Those who obey God by choosing to believe the gospel will be saved (Romans 1:16) and those who do not obey the gospel by refusing to believe the gospel will not be saved (2 Thessalonians 1:8; Romans 10:16).

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Who has not disobeyed God? (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23). None of us are sinless and perfect. So much for salvation by works. We need a Savior! (Romans 6:23) Anyone who can't see that has some serious self righteous issues!

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

Salvation by works is the deception. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9)

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

Seeking salvation by works is not obedience. So how much obedience does it take, since you believe that salvation is based on the merits of your obedience/works? How much obedience must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you? *Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. *No supplements needed. (Romans 3:22-28)

(see also James 2:26)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

 

[Argueless]

I'll make it short and simple.

Those who obey God are the ones who have FAITH and trust every word that comes from the MOUTH of God. The deception is to teach otherwise in the same manner that the serpent DECEIVED Adam and Eve.

Consider these verses below.

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did... 1 John 2

... “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 14:15-24

.. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

 

[VCO]

I'll make it short and simple.

Those who obey God are the ones who have FAITH and trust every word that comes from the MOUTH of God. The deception is to teach otherwise in the same manner that the serpent DECEIVED Adam and Eve.

Consider these verses below.

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did... 1 John 2

... “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 14:15-24

.. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

So You Think that it is THAT YOU BELIEVE, and NOT THE MOTIVE THAT YOU BELIEVE ? ? ?

Without LOVE, you are STILL LOST.

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV)
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Psalm 91:14 (NCV)
14 The LORD says, “Whoever loves me, I will save. I will protect those who know me.

John 14:21 (GWT)
21 Whoever knows and obeys my commandments is the person who loves me. Those who love me will have my Father's love, and I, too, will love them and show myself to them.”

1 John 4:21 (NJB)
21 Indeed this is the commandment we have received from him, that whoever loves God, must also love his brother.



DO YOU SEE WHY WE SAY YOU PREACH A FALSE GOSPEL ? ? ?

IT IS NOT THE DEED, THAT DETERMINES IF YOU ARE SAVED OR NOT. IT IS THE MOTIVE, AND WITHOUT LOVE BEING THE PURE MOTIVE, YOU ARE A MODERN DAY PHARISEE, JUST GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS.

 

[calibob]

Jesus is not going to be the district attorney judgement day He will be our defense! Old Slewfoot (Lucifer) will be the accuser and the law was a curse. That's why Jesus allowed to be sacrificed, to break the curse because without him none are worthy, no not one. A person who disobeys authority is cursed by the law but all new testament Apostles were outlaws and most at least were executed. Is your faith strong enough to refuse to kneel to authority? Don't only consider the words that were written but the deeds of those who wrote them. Peace, Happy Thanksgiving

 

[star]

I'm going to interject my cynicism here about seminaries, some churches, some denominations, etc. 7 years ago, my husband lost his one and only daughter (no need to go into details) and not one of the 3 pastors from our church showed up on our doorsteps. We did have some Christians friends who did. Excuses were made for those pastors but none good enough for me. My bitterness is showing but I really do not care. I place my trust in the Word of God and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ my savior. That's on the only one I do trust.