Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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I recall when he first joined. His technique was typical protocol to lead others into error. He started off with certain statements and one HAD to agree with him before he'd move on to his next fallacy. At the end of that journey is a pit.

It is remarkable just how many of these there are online, they seek out forums to deceive.
The mystery of iniquity has been at work from day one.......literally.......
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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I can quote other passages where the "free gift of salvation" and acceptance proves you are depending on "works" to keep you saved. However, since you have to spend so much time (which I do not have) quoting whatever substantiates your personal view, I'm sure you can locate those verses easily. I have confidence, faith, hope in the finished work of the Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior to provide me with everlasting salvation and I have the Holy Spirit's promise of abiding in me to help me follow the example of the Lord for an abundant life.
I have no doubt you do believe what you say. All I'm saying is that the Bible teaches satan deceives the world, and it does this through religions that call Him Lord, Lord. If we are able to create our own righteousness, after the dictates of our own minds, then the Pharisees would have not been rejected. It was a tough pill to swallow for the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time to accept what HIS Word said about their religion. It was a tough pill for me to swallow 27 years ago. Jesus said it will be a tough pill to swallow for everyone.

I believe in Him and His Word, not the tradition soaked religions of the land. What if His Word is true, and religious man's a lie?

Something man should surely consider.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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North Carolina
I have no doubt you do believe what you say. All I'm saying is that the Bible teaches satan deceives the world, and it does this through religions that call Him Lord, Lord. If we are able to create our own righteousness, after the dictates of our own minds, then the Pharisees would have not been rejected. It was a tough pill to swallow for the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time to accept what HIS Word said about their religion. It was a tough pill for me to swallow 27 years ago. Jesus said it will be a tough pill to swallow for everyone.

I believe in Him and His Word, not the tradition soaked religions of the land. What if His Word is true, and religious man's a lie?

Something man should surely consider.

I believe what the Word of God says. Who said anything about tradition. Our righteousness comes from the Holy Spirit and the cleansing of the Blood of Christ. It does not come from any kind of works, deeds, etc that we can do.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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Depends what a person means by "salvation"?

To me salvation is not only getting to heaven and having my sins forgiven, but it also includes the power of the Holy Spirit to live above sin on a daily basis. I am excited about heaven and the eternal rewards God has in store, but today I am living eternal life in a daily relationship with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Salvation to me is that whole package.
Salvation and what it means? You are multiplying its definition. The saving of our soul to everlasting, eternal life with God Almighty Make of Heaven and Earth. The Holy Spirit or the Comforter is Christ within us to help, guide us into growing in the knowledge of Him and to help us live the abundant life on earth He has planned for us.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Yes they do realise and already know what they are going to say.

"Ooh wasn't I good, look at all these good works I did"

That's also what a lot of my non Christian friends do when I ask them what they will say when they meet God.
I expect everyone who wakes up in the second resurrection and see's the Lake of Fire will be making a case for themselves. Had they "Departed" from Lawlessness as the Christ instructed, they would be already resurrected with Abraham across the great gulf. I find it fascinating how religious man "omits" that part where Jesus declares WHY He said to "Depart from Me". It seems like an important part of the conversation. Alas, modern religions ship over that part.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You have never fed me EG. You have tried to poison me a few times, but thanks to the Grace of God and His Armor, I was able to resist your food.

I can only hope that you will stop trying to force feed me, and others, your tradition soaked religion. I doubt that I should be so fortunate though.
People feed you by responding to you. It feeds yoru ego, and your pride.

as for feeding you spiritual food. Only God can do this.. But youhave to be open..sadly, you have the pharisee disease.. You attack them, when you are just like them, and can;t even see this
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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I believe what the Word of God says. Who said anything about tradition. Our righteousness comes from the Holy Spirit and the cleansing of the Blood of Christ. It does not come from any kind of works, deeds, etc that we can do.
That is your religious tradition. But Jesus said that not Every One who says Lord, Lord will enter His Kingdom. So "many" will claim His Grace, but "Many" will not receive it as it is written.

Luke 13:
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Are these also not important Word's? Should a man not look into this? Or should we just accept the word's of the religions of the land?
 

Suzy37

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
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I repied to this already and have no idea where it went GRR!

I dont doubt you had this experience VCO. I am sorry you were having problems but it seems they are often used to get our attention on God. this sounds like a calling to conversion , but not being born again. Am glad you are ok now and realize you still sin (I do that every day) but remember in 1Jhn 3vr9 it says if born of God you CANNOT SIN. We are flesh and blood with a physical body in this life, not a spirit body until the resurrection. Many can have the H S with them which is a very strong experience and can set a person to conversion. To have the HS in us then that comes thru baptism and laying on of hands.The H S with us can also lead to spiritual growth in ou lives! But if we sin we are not born again!

1Thess 5 vrs 23-24 Paul says may God sanctify you (set apart for holy use)and preserve your whole ,spirit, soul and body until the coming of Christ . The first generation Church believed that Christ would return in their time. Paul shows this in his writings and that is what he is saying here. may God preserve you blameless until Christ returns. These were Christans Paul was hoping would stay blameless until His return! Remember the reference blameless shown earlier that Zacharius and Elizabeth were blameless in keeping the commandments.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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People feed you by responding to you. It feeds yoru ego, and your pride.

as for feeding you spiritual food. Only God can do this.. But youhave to be open..sadly, you have the pharisee disease.. You attack them, when you are just like them, and can;t even see this
And yet I ask you a simple question, a valid question and you do not answer. Rather, you ridicule and insult me. You have done this since I first encountered you. All the while accusing me of doing what you are your pals have done to several on this forum. If Jesus came on this forum and simply said what He said as the Christ you would place Him on ignore as well. You would tell Him "Don't you know who I am"? And call Him a legalist and Pharisee.

That's OK EG. He said it would be this way. I just was hoping that you might answer the question, but I understand why you can't.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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when you say " his armor : you do not mean the Armor that Paul described. in order to have that, you have to have the Holy Sprit. in order to have the Holy Sprit, then you have to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as you LORD and Savior.

you just have this " the Christ " as your " savior ". if you do not accept the Lordship of Christ , then He cannot be your savior. it is package deal.

it is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or not enter the Kingdom
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Your self-righteous good works will never get you back to God.
Only the forgiveness of sin and the imputed righteousness of
Christ will.

Quote: You will not give up what you cannot keep to gain that which
you cannot lose.
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Corinthians1:24

 
P

Pisteuo

Guest
I see that everything I explained to you in post #76,738 apparently just went right over your head. It's very unfortunate that you have been duped by a Stanford University level teacher and have turned Pisteuo into salvation by works. :(

I see that you also continue to dodge my question in post #76,729. As I mentioned before, prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I was also confused about Believe - "Pisteuo" and Faith - "Pistis" and basically "defined" faith "as" obedience/works, just as you are doing now and the Roman Catholic from post #76,561 is also doing, which results in the fatal error of teaching salvation by faith + works. :( (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation.

I am trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. :) Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) (y)
Without pisteuo or an accepted sealed surrendered life which "IS " the personal relationship , Christ will say be gone , I never knew you !

And maybe you could explain to me how someone who is attempting a works based salvation ( which by the way , there's no such thing ) is standing on their works for a life that is no longer theirs . ( Pisteuo )

Funny your " trusting "is based on things that you receive , without any effort or work on your part . I hope your not married !
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Without pisteuo or an accepted sealed surrendered life which "IS " the personal relationship , Christ will say be gone , I never knew you !

And maybe you could explain to me how someone who is attempting a works based salvation ( which by the way , there's no such thing ) is standing on their works for a life that is no longer theirs . ( Pisteuo )

Funny your " trusting "is based on things that you receive , without any effort or work on your part . I hope your not married !
This proves this man has no understanding of what True Grace is,

He think he has to work for it. Well I wish him luck.


His wife is supposed to give hum unconditional love, He shoudu not have to earn it. I feel sorry for your wife and kids.. If you treat them like you think God treats you,
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
that is what Peter told the jewish authorities when they told the Apostles not to preach Christ.

" depart from me you workers of inequity " Jesus said this as He was closing the Sermon on the Mount.

then He went own to say that those who did the things He said, in the sermon.

neither of these had anything to do with the Law or the Sabbath.
 
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Pisteuo

Guest
I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon. In the saving sense of Pisteuo, I agree with that. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (y)

BUT, don't lose sight of the fact that depending on the CONTEXT, Pisteuo can mean just to believe. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/confidence/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust/confidence/reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. *Keep in mind the Greek for "believe" in James 2:19 is Pisteuo. ;) No personal surrender to Christ there or a life inspired by such surrender.

In Hebrews 11:1, we read that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Now let's break down "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." It sounds to me like Vines is mixing the fruit of faith with the essence of faith and "on the surface" that may appear to support salvation by works, which would explain why works-salvationists are very fond of that definition. :unsure:

When we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance upon Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him.

The life inspired by such surrender which "follows" is the "fruit" of faith. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. As I stated before. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief/faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.
Ok let's see if we can find a common ground .

Do you agree that the word pisteuo is used 248 times in NT ?
Do you agree with the definition , ( not an application ) of pisteuo from the Vines ? " A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Salvation and what it means? You are multiplying its definition. The saving of our soul to everlasting, eternal life with God Almighty Make of Heaven and Earth. The Holy Spirit or the Comforter is Christ within us to help, guide us into growing in the knowledge of Him and to help us live the abundant life on earth He has planned for us.
Ha! I don't know that I have been accused before of multiplying the definition of salvation. I think when we get to heaven we will find out that God had a much bigger plan than we ever realized!

I agree that all of what you wrote is a part of God's plan to save us: The saving of our soul to everlasting, eternal life with God Almighty Make of Heaven and Earth. The Holy Spirit or the Comforter is Christ within us to help, guide us into growing in the knowledge of Him and to help us live the abundant life on earth He has planned for us
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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That is your religious tradition
if the fact that my righteousness is not my own but that which is by faith is what you call 'religious tradition' then may you 'accuse' me of this always.

Philippians 3:8-9
Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

tis a far better breastplate :)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Depart from Me". It seems like an important part of the conversation. Alas, modern religions ship over that part.
Not really,

All religions including yours do not overlook this.
The only difference is interpretation and application and teaching concerning such.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
So are you saying we only receive the Holy Spirit when we obey him?
If so what is this obedience?
How much obedience is required to receive the Holy Spirit.

Can we infact be obedient to Jesus or want to be like Jesus if we do not have the Holy Spirit in us in the first place when we

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Just a few verses to ponder on.

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Seems like no obedience (as I think you define it) is required here to receive the Holy Spirit.

28 Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. 29 But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them.
30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him

Then their eyes were opened and THEY KNEW HIM.

No obedience here either.

They knew him as a result of the Holy Spirit of doing the following

John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So obedience, works or whatever you like to label it are as a result of repentance of the sin of unbelief in Jesus (and I mean a genuine faith and belief) upon which we receive the Holy Spirit (side note I do not believe the Father will give us the Holy Spirit if we are fake and looking for an easy meal ticket, which is a plate full of greasy grace).

So a genuine beliver will know

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Yes good works, those that are pleasing to God.