Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 1, 2018
92
28
18

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.


These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)


...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13


...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?


..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.


...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
 
Dec 1, 2018
92
28
18
If being faithfull is required. Then we have to save ourselves.

So the bible can not say you can not save yourself. Only to say you have to save yourself.. That is contradictory

People who have true faith work. It is not a matter of may work.. Faith works, read Heb 11. it does not sit idle. So ALL who are saved WILL work..

This thought they might not do anything so we must legalise the gospel and put people back under law, is from satan himself.
No we do not save our se
So God began a good work in them, But even thought he PROMISES he will continue that work until the day of Christ, he may FAIL?? And those whom he has perfected forever, and he promised continue to sanctify until the day of Christ, was all a lie? its not up to God and his power it is up to us and our power?
God promised the Israelites that they would enter the Promised Land. Yet those to whom He made the promise did not. God specifically affirms that He did not fulfill that promise in scripture because they lacked the faith to obey, Now you might say but this is the new covenant. But we are reminded three times in the NT not to follow the example of the Israelites with a very clear warning not to fall short of the promises of God. We receive God by a true and living faith that seeks to follow (be led) by the Holy Spirit. These are the true sons of God as Romans 8:14 indicates. It has NOTHING to do with saving ourselves. NOTHING. It does have to do with a true and living faith.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
What do you perceive as the false gospel @ReturnToGod is preaching?
Maybe YOU have the false gospel??

I'm just not sure what you believe but the above poster has said everything correctly so far.
No.😏

I have been shown the truth...

praise God

He set me free from the bondage which man made religions would place us under

and I already believe you push the same false belief system rtg peddles


I don't believe you are being dishonest in regards to your beliefs, I just know that it is error to believe once God makes us new, saves us... freely by Grace through faith

we are saved indeed


there are those we are not of who fall away....

there are those who surely are not of us or else they would have continued with us....


but God will not lose one of His children


it is only man who can be decieved by a profession of faith followed by works

not God

He doesnt make mistakes

no one He saves from a just punishment ends up in Hell


or else they were never "saved"

scripture is clear

I am not confused nor decieved nor ashamed of the truth
 
Dec 1, 2018
92
28
18
No.😏

I have been shown the truth...

praise God

He set me free from the bondage which man made religions would place us under

and I already believe you push the same false belief system rtg peddles


I don't believe you are being dishonest in regards to your beliefs, I just know that it is error to believe once God makes us new, saves us... freely by Grace through faith

we are saved indeed


there are those we are not of who fall away....

there are those who surely are not of us or else they would have continued with us....


but God will not lose one of His children


it is only man who can be decieved by a profession of faith followed by works

not God

He doesnt make mistakes

no one He saves from a just punishment ends up in Hell


or else they were never "saved"

scripture is clear

I am not confused nor decieved nor ashamed of the truth
I assure you that the people blowing themselves up and killing others believe their own version of the truth. They TRULY believe; it is just they are wrong.......It is incumbent on each of us to examine what ALL of scripture says and not trust in other men. I remind you the early church fathers did not believe what you claim (read A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers under Salvation), nor did those in the first 1600 years of the church age. If you can earnestly say that you are truly considering all scripture there is little else we can say except make sure you are considering all scripture. in Him
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
I assure you that the people blowing themselves up and killing others believe their own version of the truth. They TRULY believe; it is just they are wrong.......It is incumbent on each of us to examine what ALL of scripture says and not trust in other men. I remind you the early church fathers did not believe what you claim (read A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers under Salvation), nor did those in the first 1600 years of the church age. If you can earnestly say that you are truly considering all scripture there is little else we can say except make sure you are considering all scripture. in Him

i disagree with much of what you say

but im safe with an unshakable foundation in Him😏


i consider all of His word as absolute truth

and i hope you will in time be shown more and more of Him in a way you can be fruitful and share the truth
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
No.😏

I have been shown the truth...

praise God

He set me free from the bondage which man made religions would place us under

and I already believe you push the same false belief system rtg peddles


I don't believe you are being dishonest in regards to your beliefs, I just know that it is error to believe once God makes us new, saves us... freely by Grace through faith

we are saved indeed


there are those we are not of who fall away....

there are those who surely are not of us or else they would have continued with us....


but God will not lose one of His children


it is only man who can be decieved by a profession of faith followed by works

not God

He doesnt make mistakes

no one He saves from a just punishment ends up in Hell


or else they were never "saved"

scripture is clear

I am not confused nor decieved nor ashamed of the truth
...and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” they stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8

... HE WILL PUNISH THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. THEY WILL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.2 Thessalonians 1:8-11g


Who are those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our LORD Jesus?


...We know that WE HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. 1 John 2:3-4


...They claim to know God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good. Titus 1:16


...They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4


...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrathcomes on those who are disobedient.7 Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians5:6



 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
No.😏

I have been shown the truth...

praise God

He set me free from the bondage which man made religions would place us under

and I already believe you push the same false belief system rtg peddles


I don't believe you are being dishonest in regards to your beliefs, I just know that it is error to believe once God makes us new, saves us... freely by Grace through faith

we are saved indeed


there are those we are not of who fall away....

there are those who surely are not of us or else they would have continued with us....


but God will not lose one of His children


it is only man who can be decieved by a profession of faith followed by works

not God

He doesnt make mistakes

no one He saves from a just punishment ends up in Hell


or else they were never "saved"

scripture is clear

I am not confused nor decieved nor ashamed of the truth
In your reply you're referring to 1 John 2:19.

I hope you know that John was very concerned with gnosticism invading the church.
When John said that some left because they were "not of us", he meant that they were gnostics and so they could not get along with true Christians.

Please study this. Gnosticism seems to be making a comeback.
We have a free will and we could leave God at any time that we so choose.

As to works....they are not necessary if we are not saved. Of course.
If we ARE saved, they become necessary because the same John said that faith without works is dead.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
your words. not mine.
demonstrating again that you either fail to comprehend what i say or that you willfully twist it.

how about giving the context of this quote from me?

how about answering the question in it - is is or is it not true that the tradition of men when forming their own religions is to fill it with regulations by which to measure others and boast of themselves by adherence to?

because what i was saying in that quote is not about the righteousness of God but about the outward facade of righteousness that men make for themselves.
You statement here is clear, just as the others you have made and I have posted. This is easy to understand if a person has been convinced that God created a "bunch of laws" that are against us, and Jesus has to come and "free" you from them.

But the scriptures do not support this belief. It is man's "tradition" to reject God and His Word. From Eve and Cain to the Jews who were trying to "Bewitch the Galatians" by furthering their version the obsolete Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for justification of sins. A Priesthood that the Law and Prophets foretold would be replaced "After those days". Had the Mainstream Preachers of His time respected His Word as righteousness, "EVERY Word" as Jesus instructed, they wouldn't have mixed it with their own logic and religious traditions and would have been like Zechariahs who did strive to "live by Every Word" of God and as a result, Jesus manifest Himself to him, as promised in John 14.

God Laws are His Righteousness. His law contains Mercy, Judgment, and Faith. Jesus is the walking, Talking "Law of God", as it is written. He put God's Laws into action by walking in them perfectly. The preaching that Jesus was a self righteous man who put on an outward Façade of righteousness by walking in "a bunch of laws" just so He could ride roughshod, or claim to be more Holy than the mainstream preachers of His time is foolishness and I am amazed that you would imply such a thing. But if you read your posts, that is exactly what you are preaching. Now I know you got this teaching from somewhere, certainly not the Christ. It is my hope that you might consider all the Warnings of the Christ regarding religious man, and stick to the only true righteousness there is. The Word of God.

Man can not guide his own footsteps into eternity. There is a righteous Path Post. Jesus walked this Path as did Zechariahs, Abraham, Anna, Simeon, Paul, Peter, Stephen, the list goes on and on. But Jesus said there was also another Path, that Many, who call Him Lord, Lord, are on. He said this path leads to destruction, but I don't think those on it believe this truth.

Psalms 119:
1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.

8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.

171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.

172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.


But if you have already been convinced that you are already immortal, and that God's instruction is against you. Keeping you Blind, and burdened and in a yoke of slavery, then of course you would teach that God's "Bunch of laws, and the heathen's "bunch of laws" are no different. This is the point I hope to make.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I assure you that the people blowing themselves up and killing others believe their own version of the truth. They TRULY believe; it is just they are wrong.......It is incumbent on each of us to examine what ALL of scripture says and not trust in other men. I remind you the early church fathers did not believe what you claim (read A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers under Salvation), nor did those in the first 1600 years of the church age. If you can earnestly say that you are truly considering all scripture there is little else we can say except make sure you are considering all scripture. in Him
I've been saying the above forever.
But, hey, why listen to someone that SPOKE to and LEARNED from John the Apostle?
Like Ignatius of Antioch for example...
I've been told they were not inspired.

I guess the reformers were all inspired!
I guess it's better to believe some guy on YouTube from today than someone that learned from the Apostles.... how sad.
 
Dec 1, 2018
92
28
18
I've been saying the above forever.
But, hey, why listen to someone that SPOKE to and LEARNED from John the Apostle?
Like Ignatius of Antioch for example...
I've been told they were not inspired.

I guess the reformers were all inspired!
I guess it's better to believe some guy on YouTube from today than someone that learned from the Apostles.... how sad.
You have been a light. Praying for you. Blessings.
 
Dec 1, 2018
92
28
18
You statement here is clear, just as the others you have made and I have posted. This is easy to understand if a person has been convinced that God created a "bunch of laws" that are against us, and Jesus has to come and "free" you from them.

But the scriptures do not support this belief. It is man's "tradition" to reject God and His Word. From Eve and Cain to the Jews who were trying to "Bewitch the Galatians" by furthering their version the obsolete Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for justification of sins. A Priesthood that the Law and Prophets foretold would be replaced "After those days". Had the Mainstream Preachers of His time respected His Word as righteousness, "EVERY Word" as Jesus instructed, they wouldn't have mixed it with their own logic and religious traditions and would have been like Zechariahs who did strive to "live by Every Word" of God and as a result, Jesus manifest Himself to him, as promised in John 14.

God Laws are His Righteousness. His law contains Mercy, Judgment, and Faith. Jesus is the walking, Talking "Law of God", as it is written. He put God's Laws into action by walking in them perfectly. The preaching that Jesus was a self righteous man who put on an outward Façade of righteousness by walking in "a bunch of laws" just so He could ride roughshod, or claim to be more Holy than the mainstream preachers of His time is foolishness and I am amazed that you would imply such a thing. But if you read your posts, that is exactly what you are preaching. Now I know you got this teaching from somewhere, certainly not the Christ. It is my hope that you might consider all the Warnings of the Christ regarding religious man, and stick to the only true righteousness there is. The Word of God.

Man can not guide his own footsteps into eternity. There is a righteous Path Post. Jesus walked this Path as did Zechariahs, Abraham, Anna, Simeon, Paul, Peter, Stephen, the list goes on and on. But Jesus said there was also another Path, that Many, who call Him Lord, Lord, are on. He said this path leads to destruction, but I don't think those on it believe this truth.

Psalms 119:
1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.

8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.

171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.

172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.


But if you have already been convinced that you are already immortal, and that God's instruction is against you. Keeping you Blind, and burdened and in a yoke of slavery, then of course you would teach that God's "Bunch of laws, and the heathen's "bunch of laws" are no different. This is the point I hope to make.
I would remind us also of David of whom God said was a "man after my own heart", Consider how many times David, in Psalms used the pronoun "I" to state his faithfulness before God. It is not that David was without sin. He did wrong like all of us, but David was committed to doing right and was faithful to confess and repent of His sins when he transgressed against the Lord.....

To me that is an accusation made by non Christians say in ignorance. It speaks to the fact they have no understanding about Christianity.
I cannot see their heart, only what they claim. But the fact that based on the doctrine advanced by many that people could think this is a grave warning sign.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
I would remind us also of David of whom God said was a "man after my own heart", Consider how many times David, in Psalms used the pronoun "I" to state his faithfulness before God. It is not that David was without sin. He did wrong like all of us, but David was committed to doing right and was faithful to confess and repent of His sins when he transgressed against the Lord.....



I cannot see their heart, only what they claim. But the fact that based on the doctrine advanced by many that people could think this is a grave warning sign.
That is the whole point isn't it. "Strive to Enter" as Jesus said.

2 Tim. 2:
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

Good point and welcome to this Bible discussion forum :)
 
Mar 14, 2011
69,465
14,805
113
Works do not save; they provide evidence of a true faith.....
You are not new here are you, i remember someone else made the same mistake of taking my words out of Context when I prayed for someone else.

I never claimed works saved. But it does appear you preach it. Can you stand by these words
 
Dec 1, 2018
92
28
18
You are not new here are you, i remember someone else made the same mistake of taking my words out of Context when I prayed for someone else.

I never claimed works saved. But it does appear you preach it. Can you stand by these words
I am truly new friend. I did not say you said that. I simply made a statement because there is a false dichotomy in the church that if you are called to live faithfully it is a works based salvation. The Bible makes the point over and over that faith is accompanied by works except in the most extreme of cases.....
 
Dec 1, 2018
92
28
18
You are not new here are you, i remember someone else made the same mistake of taking my words out of Context when I prayed for someone else.

I never claimed works saved. But it does appear you preach it. Can you stand by these words
PS. The bottom line is that faith and works go together; this is what scripture teaches. Faith is the basis; works the evidence. Start with John 5:29. Let me know if you want more....
 
P

Pisteuo

Guest
PS. The bottom line is that faith and works go together; this is what scripture teaches. Faith is the basis; works the evidence. Start with John 5:29. Let me know if you want more....
If pisteuo could have been correctly translated into the English language , this topic wouldn't exist . Faith and faithing just takes work .