Not By Works
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James 1:22-25 [FONT="]22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
This is new testament scripture telling us to obey the law and the reason why we should. We gentiles are lucky. We only have four requirements. Oddly, they are not inclusive of the ten commandments, which I guess are supposed to be adhered to as a normal way of life. Acts 15:23-29 [/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]23 With them they sent the following letter:
[/FONT][FONT="]The apostles and elders, your brothers, [/FONT][FONT="]To the Gentile believers in Antioch,[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] Syria[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] and Cilicia:[/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]
Greetings.[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Farewell.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
This is new testament scripture telling us to obey the law and the reason why we should. We gentiles are lucky. We only have four requirements. Oddly, they are not inclusive of the ten commandments, which I guess are supposed to be adhered to as a normal way of life. Acts 15:23-29 [/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]23 With them they sent the following letter:
[/FONT][FONT="]The apostles and elders, your brothers, [/FONT][FONT="]To the Gentile believers in Antioch,[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] Syria[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] and Cilicia:[/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]
Greetings.[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Farewell.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Hi Grace,
I read the above twice.
I agree with it actually. I do find, however, that people who think about the flesh too much have this problem with works.
They seem to attribute everything to the flesh which is not spirit. This is gnosticism, as you well know.
I don't think about the flesh at all. I think about being happy that I know God, I think about having my life be a prayer to God, I think that EVERYTHING I DO is done for God. I don't distinguish between different types of works although I knew at least 3 types and have listed them on this thread.
OF COURSE everything we do is through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He had to leave so that the Holy Spirit could come to us and help us to follow everything He said.
Why would this have to eliminate or diminish the fact that Jesus left us with specific instructions as to how we are to behave and the things we are to do we do for God. he even specifically said to feed, to clothe, to visit.
1. I attribute dead works to be works done by persons who are not familiar with Jesus, not walking in the spirit, not saved, not friends with God. They want to be "good". No one but our Father in heaven is good. THESE works will be for naught.
2. On the other hand, if someone DOES know Jesus but wants to work work work (like some of my Catholic friends) that is THEIR prerogative. They go to Church because the feel they need to. If they miss afternoon prayer they get all upset. These are Christianly works and THESE PERSONS are not lost. They are following their conscience.
3. Then there are those who know the Lord and His Sabbath rest. We rest in Him. We do what we can. However big or however little. Our attitude towards the world is different, our attitude toward our brothers in Christ is different. We understand how weak and fragile everyone is, we undersand how easy it is to fall into sin. We know Jesus will catch us every time. We do our works because we wish to follow Him, because this is what He told us to do. He said His friends will obey His commandments.
4. Then we have some people who say that faith is all they need. They don't have to do anything if it's not done in love. Everything is love. They forget God is a just God and has never changed. They're afraid to say they do anything --- it's alwayes Jesus doing everything. What is there to be afraid of? Jesus left us commands which means that if we do them WE SHOULD BE HAPPY that we're doing them. Some have this pride in category 2 up above. But they don't understand being under Grace and not under The Law as we undersand it. It's ok. They're going to end up in heaven - maybe a little more tired than the rest of us.
So the thin red line you walk is toooo thin. You make it sound like we need to work out of love or not at all. Sometimes we feel the love, sometimes we don't --- we still have to do what Jesus said. We still have to let it be understood that the Law was not abolished, but we have a new way to follow it.
I'm taking time with this because I know what you're talking about, it just doesn't sound right. We have to work, because Jesus said so and He's the master.
This is the last paragraph of your post:
“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."
Good works is everything we do that is in keeping with what we believe God expects from us.
No need to teach any new Christian anything. He'll learn as he goes. He'll do what God tells him to do, not what we tell him to do. The internal change we experience will cause everything else we do to be a good work.
I read the above twice.
I agree with it actually. I do find, however, that people who think about the flesh too much have this problem with works.
They seem to attribute everything to the flesh which is not spirit. This is gnosticism, as you well know.
I don't think about the flesh at all. I think about being happy that I know God, I think about having my life be a prayer to God, I think that EVERYTHING I DO is done for God. I don't distinguish between different types of works although I knew at least 3 types and have listed them on this thread.
OF COURSE everything we do is through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He had to leave so that the Holy Spirit could come to us and help us to follow everything He said.
Why would this have to eliminate or diminish the fact that Jesus left us with specific instructions as to how we are to behave and the things we are to do we do for God. he even specifically said to feed, to clothe, to visit.
1. I attribute dead works to be works done by persons who are not familiar with Jesus, not walking in the spirit, not saved, not friends with God. They want to be "good". No one but our Father in heaven is good. THESE works will be for naught.
2. On the other hand, if someone DOES know Jesus but wants to work work work (like some of my Catholic friends) that is THEIR prerogative. They go to Church because the feel they need to. If they miss afternoon prayer they get all upset. These are Christianly works and THESE PERSONS are not lost. They are following their conscience.
3. Then there are those who know the Lord and His Sabbath rest. We rest in Him. We do what we can. However big or however little. Our attitude towards the world is different, our attitude toward our brothers in Christ is different. We understand how weak and fragile everyone is, we undersand how easy it is to fall into sin. We know Jesus will catch us every time. We do our works because we wish to follow Him, because this is what He told us to do. He said His friends will obey His commandments.
4. Then we have some people who say that faith is all they need. They don't have to do anything if it's not done in love. Everything is love. They forget God is a just God and has never changed. They're afraid to say they do anything --- it's alwayes Jesus doing everything. What is there to be afraid of? Jesus left us commands which means that if we do them WE SHOULD BE HAPPY that we're doing them. Some have this pride in category 2 up above. But they don't understand being under Grace and not under The Law as we undersand it. It's ok. They're going to end up in heaven - maybe a little more tired than the rest of us.
So the thin red line you walk is toooo thin. You make it sound like we need to work out of love or not at all. Sometimes we feel the love, sometimes we don't --- we still have to do what Jesus said. We still have to let it be understood that the Law was not abolished, but we have a new way to follow it.
I'm taking time with this because I know what you're talking about, it just doesn't sound right. We have to work, because Jesus said so and He's the master.
This is the last paragraph of your post:
“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."
Good works is everything we do that is in keeping with what we believe God expects from us.
No need to teach any new Christian anything. He'll learn as he goes. He'll do what God tells him to do, not what we tell him to do. The internal change we experience will cause everything else we do to be a good work.
No, because if that were so, we would literally be Jesus Christ.. But it IS His spirit living in us, that makes us want to obey Him to the best of our capabilities. And it is through Him shining through us, that we can show His love to others. 
Yes I agree. When we're born again and the Spirit comes to live in us, He's leading us and guiding us into all truth. We are being transformed more and more into the image of Christ.
Because He's love, we love.......because He forgives, we forgive and it's all because of our new creation in Christ. Once we were a selfish people and now we enjoy putting others first.
Once we totally planned our day, what we'd do, where we'd go, etc. We now allow the Lord to show us what to do and where to go.
Our new creation obeys and bears fruit because we are in Him and He in us. But it's still us doing the doing by His grace and mercy.
G7 seems to be saying something different so I was wanting clarification.
It could simply be I'm misunderstanding him......he seems to be saying Jesus is doing it and we're just a body He's living in. That's why the question......for further understanding.
There are aberrant teachings out there that say it's Jesus doing the doing and living the living and is using our bodies to do so.
All who are born again will all hear one day, "Well done though good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Lord."
Grace,
Everything you say about righteousness is right on. We are imputed righteousness through Christ.
I just wanted to say that it must be absolutely clear that if we want to be followers of Jesus we must do as he commanded.
There's seems to me to be no need to go on for pages and pages about this.
It's a RESULT OF. Ok. But let's just say it and be clear so that everyone can understand it.
The clarity is that works MUST BE DONE if one is a follower of Jesus.
HOW they come about and WHO helps us with them is a different discussion.
Everything you say about righteousness is right on. We are imputed righteousness through Christ.
I just wanted to say that it must be absolutely clear that if we want to be followers of Jesus we must do as he commanded.
There's seems to me to be no need to go on for pages and pages about this.
It's a RESULT OF. Ok. But let's just say it and be clear so that everyone can understand it.
The clarity is that works MUST BE DONE if one is a follower of Jesus.
HOW they come about and WHO helps us with them is a different discussion.
I thought this was a little wrong. I was saying if the Lord does not change us we are
no better than anyone in the world.
This means you could take the worst person in the world and there would be no
improvement.
Saying one is better than anyone in the world sounds like better than everyone
in the world. That is why it confused me.
My point is Christ in us transforms us, so we go from sinner to saint.
Why should we follow the example of Paul and not of Christ?
Paul said to follow his example as he follows that of Christ.
We're Always told to go directly to Christ.
So if Paul is following Christ's example, why can't I?? Am I not good enough?
We are absolutely to follow Christ and to become more and more like Him everyday.
Jesus Himself said this...
Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Mathew 5:48.
Without getting into what perfect means, let's just say that Jesus knew we couldn't be perfect, but that we should try to reach that goal as best we can.
Why do we say Jesus is our example, if we are not to become like Him?
There's nothing wrong in saying that we want to be like Him.
Paul said to follow his example as he follows that of Christ.
We're Always told to go directly to Christ.
So if Paul is following Christ's example, why can't I?? Am I not good enough?
We are absolutely to follow Christ and to become more and more like Him everyday.
Jesus Himself said this...
Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Mathew 5:48.
Without getting into what perfect means, let's just say that Jesus knew we couldn't be perfect, but that we should try to reach that goal as best we can.
Why do we say Jesus is our example, if we are not to become like Him?
There's nothing wrong in saying that we want to be like Him.
So true, Fran.
When we're born again, because of the new life within will begin to obey the Lord and bear fruit of righteousness. Works.
Because we're new creations in Him, our wanter changes. I want to obey, I want to please Him in all I do or say. Before I didn't want to and now I do. And He gives us the power to do His will through the new birth. AMEN!
Limey
I don't know you and I don't like to talk personally.
I just want to say that you mentioned that you would HOPE to see in yourself the desre to have sin decrease.
This is important. We should not only hope it, it should already be present in our lives.
The desire to decrease sin, I mean.
Actual sin will Always be present. This is NOT speaking as if sin could be our conqueror because it cannot.
However, we must be honest and say that man will Always sin. Why? Because God is so mightly and so perfect that any minute and tiny move away from Him can be said to be sin.
The other thing I'd like to say is that the Holy Spirit does help us in our walk, but I cerainly hope that you realize that you also need to put your own effort into your salvation. God will give you the desire to be as perfect as possible, but it's you who will have to put that desire into motion.
I don't know you and I don't like to talk personally.
I just want to say that you mentioned that you would HOPE to see in yourself the desre to have sin decrease.
This is important. We should not only hope it, it should already be present in our lives.
The desire to decrease sin, I mean.
Actual sin will Always be present. This is NOT speaking as if sin could be our conqueror because it cannot.
However, we must be honest and say that man will Always sin. Why? Because God is so mightly and so perfect that any minute and tiny move away from Him can be said to be sin.
The other thing I'd like to say is that the Holy Spirit does help us in our walk, but I cerainly hope that you realize that you also need to put your own effort into your salvation. God will give you the desire to be as perfect as possible, but it's you who will have to put that desire into motion.
Yes, we are supposed to obey Jesus. But He NEVER said to do those good works to keep our salvation. I'd like to see the verse where He did, if you can find any where He says "your works will guarantee your salvation"..
If you believe you must do works to keep your salvation, you're gonna be surprised someday when God tells you that HIS SON saved you, and that your works did NOT.
You seem to have the mindset of, when we say we don't do works for the purpose of keeping salvation, that that means not to do any works at all. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that works ARE NOT NECESSARY in order to KEEP salvation.. That's NOT the reason why we're commanded to do good works.
The reason why we're commanded to do good works, is to SHOW GOD'S LOVE TO OTHERS. End of story..
You cannot lose salvation if you don't do many good works. Denying that Christ ever lived and died for us, is the ONLY way to lose salvation. I'm stuck in bed at least 85% of the time, so I can't do many good works, but I DO still have my salvation.
Salvation = Jesus Christ
Works do NOT equal Christ
If you believe you must do works to keep your salvation, you're gonna be surprised someday when God tells you that HIS SON saved you, and that your works did NOT.
You seem to have the mindset of, when we say we don't do works for the purpose of keeping salvation, that that means not to do any works at all. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that works ARE NOT NECESSARY in order to KEEP salvation.. That's NOT the reason why we're commanded to do good works.
The reason why we're commanded to do good works, is to SHOW GOD'S LOVE TO OTHERS. End of story..
You cannot lose salvation if you don't do many good works. Denying that Christ ever lived and died for us, is the ONLY way to lose salvation. I'm stuck in bed at least 85% of the time, so I can't do many good works, but I DO still have my salvation.
Salvation = Jesus Christ
Works do NOT equal Christ
I'll bet you do.
Make a list and let me know.
Yes, we are supposed to obey Jesus. But He NEVER said to do those good works to keep our salvation. I'd like to see the verse where He did, if you can find any where He says "your works will guarantee your salvation"..
If you believe you must do works to keep your salvation, you're gonna be surprised someday when God tells you that HIS SON saved you, and that your works did NOT.
You seem to have the mindset of, when we say we don't do works for the purpose of keeping salvation, that that means not to do any works at all. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that works ARE NOT NECESSARY in order to KEEP salvation.. That's NOT the reason why we're commanded to do good works.
The reason why we're commanded to do good works, is to SHOW GOD'S LOVE TO OTHERS. End of story..
You cannot lose salvation if you don't do many good works. Denying that Christ ever lived and died for us, is the ONLY way to lose salvation. I'm stuck in bed at least 85% of the time, so I can't do many good works, but I DO still have my salvation.
Salvation = Jesus Christ
Works do NOT equal Christ
If you believe you must do works to keep your salvation, you're gonna be surprised someday when God tells you that HIS SON saved you, and that your works did NOT.
You seem to have the mindset of, when we say we don't do works for the purpose of keeping salvation, that that means not to do any works at all. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that works ARE NOT NECESSARY in order to KEEP salvation.. That's NOT the reason why we're commanded to do good works.
The reason why we're commanded to do good works, is to SHOW GOD'S LOVE TO OTHERS. End of story..
You cannot lose salvation if you don't do many good works. Denying that Christ ever lived and died for us, is the ONLY way to lose salvation. I'm stuck in bed at least 85% of the time, so I can't do many good works, but I DO still have my salvation.
Salvation = Jesus Christ
Works do NOT equal Christ
You said:
Yes, we are supposed to obey Jesus. But He NEVER said to do those good works to keep our salvation. I'd like to see the verse where He did, if you can find any where He says "your works will guarantee your salvation"..
Could you find me a verse that says "You don't have to do anything after you're saved".
I'd like to add that we do good works to how our love, and also because we're in the Kingdom of God and we're supposed to behave like we belong there.
Also, I do agree with you about how salvation could be lost.
If we don't do what Jesus commanded, are we denying Him?
Or do we have faith in Him?
John 14:21
John 14:24
John 14:26
John 15:14
What more do you need?
I'm not saying that we don't have to do anything after being saved.. I am saying that the works we do AFTER being saved, DO NOT KEEP US SAVED. I honestly can't figure out WHY you can't understand this. It's a simple concept that even a child can understand. I've ALWAYS said that we do good works to show our love for God and others.
What more do YOU need? I can't explain it any plainer than this. THE WORKS WE DO, DO NOT GAIN US SALVATION NOR KEEP US OUR SALVATION.
Imo, no, we aren't denying Jesus if we don't do what He asks us to. We are only rebelling and doing what WE want. That is NOT the same as rejecting Him outright and saying, "Sorry Jesus you never existed".
What more do YOU need? I can't explain it any plainer than this. THE WORKS WE DO, DO NOT GAIN US SALVATION NOR KEEP US OUR SALVATION.
Imo, no, we aren't denying Jesus if we don't do what He asks us to. We are only rebelling and doing what WE want. That is NOT the same as rejecting Him outright and saying, "Sorry Jesus you never existed".
I can't figure out if you're just uneducated on what it takes to lose salvation, and what our works do and don't accomplish, or if you're willingly not accepting what Jesus said about our FAITH saving us. You're bound and determined to believe that your works WILL keep you saved, so what's the point of belaboring the point any further?
Get this into your brain: WORKS DO NOT SAVE US. FAITH DOES. JESUS DOES.
Sorry but if you and others believe that works get you into heaven, keep you saved or whatever, you are sorely deluding yourself.
Get this into your brain: WORKS DO NOT SAVE US. FAITH DOES. JESUS DOES.
Sorry but if you and others believe that works get you into heaven, keep you saved or whatever, you are sorely deluding yourself.
I like what you said here:
He gives us the power to do His will through the new Birth.
This is EXACTLY how it can be explained.
Without the new Birth it is impossible to keep the Law. We are cursed by the Law because it only serves to show us what sinners we are. This is the Old or Mosaic Covenant. The Law cannot be kept.
With the new Birth, which is the New Covenant or Testament, which is left to us by Jesus after His Death and resurrection, it is now possible to follow God's Law. The mora Law. (the civil and ceremonial Laws were abolished).
And when we cannot keep it, Jesus covers for us.
This is why he went to free the "prisoners" after His Death. These are the ones who were saved by faith in the O.T. and were waiting for the atonement of Jesus, Luke 16.
The truth is clear and simple to understand. No need for pages and pages of explanations.
God does not make confusion...
He gives us the power to do His will through the new Birth.
This is EXACTLY how it can be explained.
Without the new Birth it is impossible to keep the Law. We are cursed by the Law because it only serves to show us what sinners we are. This is the Old or Mosaic Covenant. The Law cannot be kept.
With the new Birth, which is the New Covenant or Testament, which is left to us by Jesus after His Death and resurrection, it is now possible to follow God's Law. The mora Law. (the civil and ceremonial Laws were abolished).
And when we cannot keep it, Jesus covers for us.
This is why he went to free the "prisoners" after His Death. These are the ones who were saved by faith in the O.T. and were waiting for the atonement of Jesus, Luke 16.
The truth is clear and simple to understand. No need for pages and pages of explanations.
God does not make confusion...