Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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from what i've been told, manuscript evidence makes it clear that what the KJV translated this portion from was the result of copying error, "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" being mistakenly written twice by someone accidentally starting from the wrong line while they were working on duplicating word-for word a previously existing scroll. that it doesn't actually belong in verse 1.

this doesn't change the meaning of the text at all, in fact if you go back to the beginning of this section of rhetoric you see the same argument in the same phrasing made in ch. 6.

what does change the meaning of the text is acting as though this glorious declaration opening chapter 8 has nothing to do with chapter 6 and especially the closing paragraph of chapter 7. the addition of chapters and verses is very unfortunate here. you cannot get to Romans 8:1 without coming through chapters 6-7 and 8:1 is inextricable from 7:14-25 which immediately precedes it. there is no break in rhetoric; 8:1 is the inescapable conclusion of 1:1-7:25
Amen....the 1st verse does not contain it.....those who are in Christ are not condemned John covers this numerous times!
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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STOP think this through logically. It is WHAT you have LOGICALLY said. if works and faith are completely divorced, it is only LOGICALLY consistent that one may act anyway they want and it does not affect their salvation. Please try to grasp the LOGICAL IMPLICATIONS of what you are saying.
Hi ReturnToGod please show the forum where dcontroversal said or implied the words highlighted in your post; "if works and faith are completely divorced", dcontroversal never said or even implied these words why? Because he knows as well as all of us know that; "works are evidence that a true Christian is born again.

In addition no Christian believes that you can, "act anyway you please," after you are saved, this is a non sequitur and flat out a lie.

Please support what you claim in your post by proving proof that dcontroversal said these things.

You know he never said these things and you are putting words in his mouth. It is shameful to carry stories about another Christian that are not true an you should truly apologies.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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See? You refuse to think though the logical implications of what you are saying.
We are done. God Bless.
I am just dumbfounded by your lack of concern. If you carry stories about a Christian brother that are false and could put him in a bad light; do not runaway instead please make an apology.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Hi ReturnToGod please show the forum where dcontroversal said or implied the words highlighted in your post; "if works and faith are completely divorced", dcontroversal never said or even implied these words why? Because he knows as well as all of us know that; "works are evidence that a true Christian is born again.

In addition no Christian believes that you can, "act anyway you please," after you are saved, this is a non sequitur and flat out a lie.

Please support what you claim in your post by proving proof that dcontroversal said these things.

You know he never said these things and you are putting words in his mouth. It is shameful to carry stories about another Christian that are not true an you should truly apologies.
Amen brother.....
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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The FREE GIFT of God is His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
(Romans 6:23, revelations 22:17)


. . .


John 4:10 (NCV)
10 Jesus said, “If you only knew the free gift of God and who it is that is asking you for water, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.“

John 4:14 (NCV)
14 but whoever drinks the water I give will never be thirsty. The water I give will become a spring of water gushing up inside that person, giving eternal life.“

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:16 (NCV)
16 After Adam sinned once, he was judged guilty. But the gift of God is different. God’s free gift came after many sins, and it makes people right with God.

Ephesians 1:6 (NCV)
6 and it brings praise to God because of his wonderful grace. God gave that grace to us freely, in Christ, the One he loves.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Is quoting hard for you?

You think you can endure and abide is the problem.. It is not your power. It is GODS But hey, You continue to try to do it on your own power. I will continue to trust God.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
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See? You refuse to think though the logical implications of what you are saying. We are done. God Bless.
One more thing ReturnToGod, the people on this forum and in particular this thread "Not By Works" are very loving and forgiving. I have made false statements in the past on this thread and admitted I was wrong and then sought reconciliation. Folks here were cheerful to accept me back into the fellowship.

What kind of character does that reveal about you to just give up and say, "I'm done." :(

Zachariah8:16
"These are the things you must do: Speak truth to one another, render true and sound decisions in your gates,"
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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You may not know this, but I too have noticed some POSTS get posted right after you download the REPLY from another person before you GET to comment on it. You had 3 back to back like that. THERE IS AN OPTION TO DELETE THE POST when that happens, but the same 5 minute edit rules applies. Down on the bottom row is the DELETE OPTION next to the EDIT button.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Now I must apologize to you, because I was a little rough on you earlier. So forgive me for not being gentler. I reacted, because I HEARD that SAME OLD LIE that Armenians Churches love to tell, just one too many times. AND HONEST, it is a total lie about our Beliefs. I do not blame you, but the Authors of Sermons you heard, because they were based on FALSE ASSUMPTIONS about our beliefs.

Also, I forgot to mention 1 John 1:9, which has the word CONFESS in it. That word it is in the Greek Present Tense, which is an ONGOING LIFESTYLE of Confessing EVERY NEW Sin we RECOGNIZE IT, that is in our LIVES. That is the biggest reason for my asking you to forgive me. We do not confess old sins over and over, we REPENT and CONFESS NEW SINS as discover them. As we mature SPIRITUALLY, we become more and more aware of what all GOD CONSIDERS SIN. Just when you think you got a small handle on SINS OF COMMISSION, all of a sudden, you find out there are SINS OF OMISSIONS, TOO. So we confess those sins TOO. However that is the Process of Sanctification, as we become more and more like CHRIST Himself. We will not be PERFECT until we GET THAT GLORIFIED BODY LIKE HIS, which will not be able to THINK SIN.
I agree with all this, but as i mentioned in another post, i am unaware of virtually any continuous present reference to sanctification. It is almost universally represented in the Aorist tense meaning a one time event.

Brother no problem; thank you for reaching out. Even though i have some ideas of what Calvin and Arminius stand for, I study neither. I study scripture and the underlying language. I have attended churches (Baptist, Calvary, Church of Christ, AOG, Foursquare, etc) for years so I cannot speak to YOUR beliefs but i can speak to what is taught and what other believers tell me. We are living in the era of the Laodicean Church. The evidence is all around us and it is GENERALLY supported by sound bite teaching from the pulpit. Furthermore, if you will research what early church fathers believed you will find that it differs from the reformers. You may want to consider "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers." if you have not already read it. Those in the intermediate church age were also different. I will re-look at your points and address them point by point IF YOU WISH. If you aren't interested in hearing that no problem but all I believe comes from scripture and not men. In short, we see all sorts of Christians living in willful sin (and of course there are others that aren't) because of modern teachings. Consider even this research from George Barna: http://freshlightsource.com/believers/whypastorsnottellingtruth.html
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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It is not a matter of being perfect. It is a matter of submittin


Right I reject based on scripture that there is no relationship between faith and works. Scripture teaches that faith and works go together. The logical conclusion of what the Modern Church mostly teaches is that one may have faith yet live in rebellion to God and remain saved.

I TOLD YOU THAT IS A TOTAL FALSE STATEMENT. And associated Works with SALVATION is a False Gospel.That is number TWO, so next time you go on my IGNORE LIST.



STOP think this through logically. It is WHAT you have LOGICALLY said. if works and faith are completely divorced, it is only LOGICALLY consistent that one may act anyway they want and it does not affect their salvation. Please try to grasp the LOGICAL IMPLICATIONS of what you are saying.


Please TRY to grasp SPIRITUAL IMPLICATIONS, that a BORN AGAIN Human Spirit has GOD'S LOVE SOWN INTO IT AS THE FERTILE SEED in our HEARTS (Human Spirit); therefore your LOGICAL IMPLICATIONS does not matter, BECAUSE GOD's LOVE over rides LOGIC every time. HE USES THAT LOVE HE had the Holy Spirit Pour Into our HEARTS, to produce OBEDIENCE OUT OF PURE LOVE.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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from what i've been told, manuscript evidence makes it clear that what the KJV translated this portion from was the result of copying error, "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" being mistakenly written twice by someone accidentally starting from the wrong line while they were working on duplicating word-for word a previously existing scroll. that it doesn't actually belong in verse 1.

this doesn't change the meaning of the text at all, in fact if you go back to the beginning of this section of rhetoric you see the same argument in the same phrasing made in ch. 6.

what does change the meaning of the text is acting as though this glorious declaration opening chapter 8 has nothing to do with chapter 6 and especially the closing paragraph of chapter 7. the addition of chapters and verses is very unfortunate here. you cannot get to Romans 8:1 without coming through chapters 6-7 and 8:1 is inextricable from 7:14-25 which immediately precedes it. there is no break in rhetoric; 8:1 is the inescapable conclusion of 1:1-7:25
I think you can make that claim but again what Romans 8:1 may not say in the newer versions, is essentially replicated in Romans 8:4 in all versions. The claim is the same in Galatians 6:7-9. Live by the spirit (not simply be indwelt) and you will inherit eternal life. Live by the flesh and we won't. Also as you say, there are no chapters and verses in the original manuscripts which i am sure you know but there is a strong condemnation against sinning in Chapter 6.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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I TOLD YOU THAT IS A TOTAL FALSE STATEMENT. And associated Works with SALVATION is a False Gospel.That is number TWO, so next time you go on my IGNORE LIST.

Friend you need to take some medicine. First you essentially yell then apologize and now threaten again. I will assume from this you don't want your false simplifications challenged by scripture. Thank you and God Bless


Please TRY to grasp SPIRITUAL IMPLICATIONS, that a BORN AGAIN Human Spirit has GOD'S LOVE SOWN INTO IT AS THE FERTILE SEED in our HEARTS (Human Spirit); therefore your LOGICAL IMPLICATIONS does not matter, BECAUSE GOD's LOVE over rides LOGIC every time. HE USES THAT LOVE HE had the Holy Spirit Pour Into our HEARTS, to produce OBEDIENCE OUT OF PURE LOVE.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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One more thing ReturnToGod, the people on this forum and in particular this thread "Not By Works" are very loving and forgiving. I have made false statements in the past on this thread and admitted I was wrong and then sought reconciliation. Folks here were cheerful to accept me back into the fellowship.

What kind of character does that reveal about you to just give up and say, "I'm done." :(

Zachariah8:16
"These are the things you must do: Speak truth to one another, render true and sound decisions in your gates,"
I have tried to argue the truth of scripture and logic (and Paul reasoned that Jesus WAS the Christ). Most are unwilling. One threatened me and told me i will go on their list. Others get angry. What would you have me do?
 
Dec 1, 2018
92
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Is quoting hard for you?

You think you can endure and abide is the problem.. It is not your power. It is GODS But hey, You continue to try to do it on your own power. I will continue to trust God.
God commands us to abide in Him. I trust in God also first and foremost. If you are trusting in God while living in rebellion to Him good luck. If you are trying to be faithful, your trust will not be misplaced.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
I have tried to argue the truth of scripture and logic (and Paul reasoned that Jesus WAS the Christ). Most are unwilling. One threatened me and told me i will go on their list. Others get angry. What would you have me do?
decon did not say the things you said he said so just the best way you know how say excuse me my mistake and move on, like I said it happens to the best of us even me...:)

God bless!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
I agree with all this, but as i mentioned in another post, i am unaware of virtually any continuous present reference to sanctification. It is almost universally represented in the Aorist tense meaning a one time event.

Brother no problem; thank you for reaching out. Even though i have some ideas of what Calvin and Arminius stand for, I study neither. I study scripture and the underlying language. I have attended churches (Baptist, Calvary, Church of Christ, AOG, Foursquare, etc) for years so I cannot speak to YOUR beliefs but i can speak to what is taught and what other believers tell me. We are living in the era of the Laodicean Church. The evidence is all around us and it is GENERALLY supported by sound bite teaching from the pulpit. Furthermore, if you will research what early church fathers believed you will find that it differs from the reformers. You may want to consider "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers." if you have not already read it. Those in the intermediate church age were also different. I will re-look at your points and address them point by point IF YOU WISH. If you aren't interested in hearing that no problem but all I believe comes from scripture and not men. In short, we see all sorts of Christians living in willful sin (and of course there are others that aren't) because of modern teachings. Consider even this research from George Barna: http://freshlightsource.com/believers/whypastorsnottellingtruth.html


ACCORDING the BLUE LETTER BIBLE, your definition of Aorist Tense is IN ERROR.

The Aorist Tense
This tense is hardly a tense at all. It describes indefinite or undefined action. The word aoristos derives from an alpha privative (ie. negation) and the verb horizô (meaning "to bound") thus meaning "without boundaries". [2] With the indicative mood it is often best translated as a simple past: "I loosed."

Example: Jhn 3:16

For God so loved the world

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time.
 
J

J70x7

Guest
decon did not say the things you said he said so just the best way you know how say excuse me my mistake and move on, like I said it happens to the best of us even me...:)

God bless!
dcontroversial admitted he doesn't want to believe all Jesus has revealed.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
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58
HBG. Pa. USA
Amen....the 1st verse does not contain it.....those who are in Christ are not condemned John covers this numerous times!
In Christ has become quite subjective. Just because one says so; doesn't make it so. By their fruits you shall know them. By the Spirit that dwells in them. For HE is LOVE and as HE is so are they in this World.