Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

To avoid any misunderstanding, can you confirm who you're referring to as "those who love the Lord"?

I ask because one can profess to be a christian, have a zeal, and profess to love the Lord, but not actually be IN Christ, as is evidenced by the scriptures that tell us on judgment day many religious people will say "Lord, Lord"... but He will say He never knew any of them. They professed to be christians, but were never truly saved.

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"

Those who are IN Christ are the ones that are no longer condemned.

Only bringing this up to avoid any misunderstanding.

Amen Katy....and the predominant characteristics of the "plenteous in number" that get cast from the presence of Jesus are two fold....

a. They claim to know Jesus
b. They boast of works as proof

The same thing the "workers for" claim and push.....not acknowledging the truth that Paul calls all who blend faith and works for salvation fools and bewitched into a false gospel that has no power to save nor keep saved......

I pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to Save those who BELIEVE <---NO WORKS LISTED

Now watch the cake takers yank James out of context to push a false worling for dogma.....tragically I might add!

 

[dcontroversal]

No...we are NOT to do good works in the way that some seem to be implying.

Good works are a natural manifestation of the fruit of the spirit on us the branches that are on the Vine. They are Christ's good works flowing in and through us.

I also have said this many times . We are working with the Lord in the family business of telling people of the love and grace of our loving Father and Lord towards them.

We get to participate in the good works that God has prepared for us to walk in before the foundation of the world. Eph 2:10.

It is NOT a requirement for salvation that some try to make it out to be. That is where the hang-up is it seems with these different views from people which is exactly what blue_ladybug was trying to get across in this thread as well as a whole host of others.

Amen to this post as well...any work or fruit is the result of the salvation and faith one already possesses in Christ....HE AS THE ROOT is the producing factor as we surrender to his will as a living sacrifice.....and exactly why works will never save or keep saved...it is Jesus doing the work in and through us.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

I see the confusion concerning sanctification is still blinding some....Sanctification is DUAL IN APPLICATION...Hebrews is clear and uses Sanctified in a past tense and is applied POSITONALLY to a believer who has been SAVED, JUSTIFIED, SEALED IN CHRIST based upon faith.......after this comes the DAILY PROCESS OF SANCTIFICATION IN OUR PHYSICAL LIVES....this is an ongoing process which can be facillitated and or stunted based upon faithful obedience to the word or a lack thereof as one grows and matures....the LATTER has no bearing on the first application of the word as applied unto a believer who has been saved, justified, sealed and sanctified POSITIONALLY in Christ dia faith!

 

[dcontroversal]

First of all, yes I CAN say with 100% certainty that I haven't denied any truths in this thread. Furthermore, Peter did NOT "scratch his head", he said "Lord I would never deny YOU".. MY doctrine is the bible. And NOWHERE in the bible does it say that we are saved by works, or that our works keep our salvation, OR that we must get daily salvation in the form of a "cookie" as you call it.. THAT is what the baloney spaghetti is.

Your works will NOT save you, Jim. Nor will they guarantee your way into heaven.

Amen.....Blue fades back, shoots and scores from the three point line........another excellent bombing run on the workers for.........boooooooooommmmmm!

 

[Katy-follower]

Amen Katy....and the predominant characteristics of the "plenteous in number" that get cast from the presence of Jesus are two fold....

a. They claim to know Jesus
b. They boast of works as proof

The same thing the "workers for" claim and push.....not acknowledging the truth that Paul calls all who blend faith and works for salvation fools and bewitched into a false gospel that has no power to save nor keep saved......

I pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to Save those who BELIEVE <---NO WORKS LISTED

Now watch the cake takers yank James out of context to push a false worling for dogma.....tragically I might add!

Yes, the boasting of works... look what I did (me!), rather than what Christ did. They believed their works made them righteous and as a result rejected the work of Christ, by instead believing they had to add something to His finished work.

The clue also is the fact that this particular group will call Him "Lord"... not something an atheist would say, but used a lot in the christian world. But He was never their Lord.

The prophesying and miracle workers sound a lot like protestants to me. The casting out of demons could equally be catholics and protestants. But in this group will be many religious people who never trusted in the work of Christ (Matthew 7:21-23)

The fact that God mentions this group to us, clearly it's a warning to those reading... to make sure you're in the faith, so you don't end up in this group!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, the boasting of works... look what I did (me!), rather than what Christ did. They believed their works made them righteous and as a result rejected the work of Christ, by instead believing they had to add something to His finished work.

The clue also is the fact that this particular group will call Him "Lord"... not something an atheist would say, but used a lot in the christian world. But He was never their Lord.

The prophesying and miracle workers sound a lot like protestants to me. The casting out of demons could equally be catholics and protestants. But in this group will be many religious people who never trusted in the work of Christ (Matthew 7:21-23)

The fact that God mentions this group to us, clearly it's a warning to those reading... to make sure you're in the faith, so you don't end up in this group!!

Almost all so called Christian denominations can be lumped into the three listed.....most push a faith blended with works gospel of a different kind......my brother had the opportunity to witness to two men who were dying once....one a charsimatic that believed in his works and another who had never even graced the doors of a church building....the latter accepted Jesus by faith and went out peacefully....the 1st went out rough while arguing his standing based upon works..

Jesus was clear.....the number will be plenteous that comes before him boasting of works and claiming Jesus as Lord....just as ALL WORKERS FOR DO......

My bible is clear...works do not save, keep saved or help one be saved......

Faith and faith alone SAVES.....works or fruit come from the salvation one already possess by genuine faith......!

 

[jaybird88]

almost 400 pages DC. you rock!

 

[dcontroversal]

almost 400 pages DC. you rock!

Amen....this needs to be continually at the forefront....Christianity can be divided into two groups at the end of the day....

a. Those who teach a fatih based salvation and that works and fruit are the result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in Jesus (The minority)

b. Those who blend faith and works as a means of getting, keeping or embellishing salvation (The majority)

One group is right...the other is not....and eternity is at stake......!

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have DONE, but according to his mercy has HE SAVED US.

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE

Paul was clear.....faith plus works for is false, double cursed and has no power to save.....and exactly why the number will be plenteous that comes before Jesus boasting of their works while calling Jesus Lord....only to be cast as LOST

Galatians 1 and 3

 

[dcontroversal]

Works are about rewards. Salvation is by blood.

Life is not in works unless its of Spirit.

Why is this hard?

It is not that difficult.....unless you interject works and self.....grace or works....one or the other....one saves the other leads to the plenteous in number that get cast into hell because they trusted self over Jesus.....!

 

[Seohce]

Works will NOT save us. Works will NOT KEEP us saved. Works are NOT done for the purpose of KEEPING salvation..

They ARE done, because they are commanded to be done. But doing them for the purpose of keeping salvation is totally futile..

If works do not save, that declaration would imply that any kind of works do not save. If the Holy Spirit is really in you and you are in(the body/church)Christ, would you still say that "works do not save"? Isn't it tantamount to rejecting God and the Holy Spirit working in you?


1 Corinthians 12:6,11 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

If you are a part of the body of Christ then you are a worker and a servant just as Jesus himself worked and served God in all humility and obedience to the will of God the Father. God bless you sis.

 

[dcontroversal]

works help to save you and works help top save others.... period...like it was good works that i donated to help cc carry on in ministery..

Nope..nope and when you brag of your works you have your reward....the praise of men and not God!

 

[FranC]

yes our sanctification IS the will of God according to paul. I think that obedience to Jesus, and " works of the Law of moses" are 2 different things completely. the Law commanded " you must surely put the sinner among you to death" Jesus of course saved the sinner condemned according to the Mosaic Law, in His mercy and then says " Go and leave your life of sin"

obeying Jesus and keeping the hundreds of scrupulous commands of the mosaic Law are 2 seperate things One is for Christians, the other was to lead the world to Jesus the Highest authority that exists. being the ONE mediator between God and man. we can destroy our own selves if we persist in disobedience, its not Gods fault if we do that, He has made the way clear and straight, and He validated it by spilling His sons Blood to pay our debts according to the mosaic Law.

Without Jesus we would have to follow the mosaic Law so when our children dishonored us we would be commanded to drag them outside cast the first stone and all the congegation would then pick up jagged rocks and toss them until the child was killed. its a direct command of the Law of Moses. really if you compare the mosaic Law to the Gospel, there are very few similarities outside the ten commandments. and those were seperate tablets from the book of moses Law. we have the word of Life to follow and there is no condemnation in it, the law had many condemnations and repentance wasnt even provided for as an option for the laws premise is " show no pity to the sinner, no mercy upon them you must surely put them to death and purge the sin from among you.


some teach that Jesus taught the mosaic Law again, but its strange that it is so different in every aspect. if we truly take what Jess did for us to heart we will serve Him according to His will. and His will is made plain in His words. forgive others when they sin against you is the will of God, repent of our sins and follow the Lord is the will of God, care for those we are able to help who have need is the will of God, work Justice and righteousness is Gods will, be sanctified accoprding to the truth given by Jesus is Gods will. its not a mt=ystery Jesus took what was hidden because of our sins, and made it plain.


Once we believe in Jesus, there is much to do. and if we refuse to do those things we do have to stand before the One who clearly said " Learn and do these things with a fervent passion. we who have partaken of the Holy spirit should Love the idea of learning from the One who made salvation possible for us through the shedding of His own tears and His blood upon OUR cross. He did that for me, therefore i will receive every word of His as my Savior and Lord.

if we Just take His word for it, we cant deny that there are things we must do in response to the gift of hope of eternal Life

Great post. I couldn't give you a rep. (frustrating).
When this is explained so well, far better than I could ever do, I wonder why it's not understood or accepted.

I tried to Google some kind of explanation --- although I really don't like using Google, but I did look for something in line with what I've been taught and believe to be true.

For anyone interested, I did come across this. I especially like the last paragraph.
Jesus abolished the Civil and Ceremonial Law, But the Moral Law was never abolished.
I've repeated this many times but to no avail. We MUST keep the moral Law if we want to be followers.
Whether it is out of love, or out of sheer will, but it must be kept.

The “Law of Moses” is a beautiful thing—when men regard it rightly. This is why the Psalmist can say, “O how I love Thy law” (Psalm 119:97). The “Law of Moses was not meant to save men, but to show them their need to be saved, and thus to lead them to Christ (Galatians 3:24). The Jews of Jesus’ day twisted the law, so much so that they considered themselves to be righteous, and yet they condemned Jesus as a law-breaker (especially in regard to the Sabbath—see John 5:16ff.; 19:7). This may help to explain why Jesus called the law “your law” in John 8:17, even as they called it their law (John 7:51; 19:7).

There is a great difference between accepting the Law of Moses as God’s standard of righteousness, and making that same law the means to earning your own salvation, by the work of law-keeping. In Romans chapter 3, Paul made it clear that no one could be saved by law-keeping. So it is that when Paul refers to the “law” in Romans 7, he is referring to the “Law of Moses” or to the commands of God more generally in the Old Testament. Paul loved the “Law of Moses” when it was looked upon as “the law of God” and not as that set of laws that were twisted by the Jews into something they were never meant to be.

In my opinion there is not a great difference between the “Law of Moses” and the “law of God” as mentioned in Romans 7. The difference is in how men looked upon that law. When they saw it is something one must keep in order to earn salvation (Jesus would call this “your law”), they were wrong. When they saw it as a standard of righteousness (Paul would call it, “the law of God”) which Jesus kept as the Son of God, and which the Holy Spirit strengthens us to keep (although imperfectly, see Romans 8:4) then they viewed it rightly.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Hi Seohce,

When I say that works do not save us, I am talking about PHYSICAL works. Like mowing a neighbor's lawn or shoveling their driveway, making a dinner and taking it to a home-bound person, etc etc.. Those things ARE nice, but they will not save us.

Now, on the flip side of that, I believe that *some* of our SPIRITUAL works don't save us, either. For example, praying does not get us saved. Nor does it keep us saved, and it won't get us into heaven. And reading our bibles, that doesn't save us either. Words on a page in a book don't save us. Attending church doesn't save us, either. Singing hymns and listening to a sermon does not save us. They may help us in our spiritual walk, but they don't having saving power.

What DOES save us is our faith and belief in Jesus. And through that faith and belief, He grants us His grace. So there it is in a nut shell. Grace, faith, belief. THESE things are what saves us, they are what keeps us saved, and they are what will get us into heaven.

If works do not save, that declaration would imply that any kind of works do not save. If the Holy Spirit is really in you and you are in(the body/church)Christ, would you still say that "works do not save"? Isn't it tantamount to rejecting God and the Holy Spirit working in you?


1 Corinthians 12:6,11 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

If you are a part of the body of Christ then you are a worker and a servant just as Jesus himself worked and served God in all humility and obedience to the will of God the Father. God bless you sis.

 

[FranC]

This is an example of zeal for God without enought study of His word.

Nothing in scripture ever gives man the ability to achieve righteousness by law obedience. Moses knew and said that God was holy. Scripture tells us we are not born holy. There is no scripture saying Moses was in rebellion against how God created the world to operate well unless his objection to the work God chose Moses to do could be called obellion. To teach otherwise is an offense against Christ for Christ and the Father are one. To obey the Father is to obey Christ. When we disobey the report Moses gave of the ways of the Father we are to turn from that disobedience (repent) and Christ's blood wipes out our disobedience.

Hi Blik,

The opposite of the Law of Obedience, which I highlighed above, Is Faith of Obedience.
We have faith, and so we obey.

No matter how one wants to word it, WE MUST OBEY.
God has not changed and he demands that we obey the moral Law.
That was never abolished.

Grace quotes Romans 10:2-4
This explains HOW we are to be saved. Before it was done by trying to keep all the Laws. This did not work.
Now God has given us HIS righteousness, which is by the Death of His Son and our accptance of this sacrifice, we now belong to God and we keep the Law out of our faith in God, and He supplies us with the power to do so.

We trust in God to save us. A free gift of salvation.
But then we must keep that salvation by trusting in God's help through the Holy Spirit and by obeying Him.

 

[blue_ladybug]

NO ONE here has said that we DON'T have to obey the moral law. Not one single person here has stated that at all..

Jesus paid our salvation once and for all time. Why people refuse to accept this, is beyond me..

Good works are required, but they WILL NOT save us.

 

[FranC]

Jesus talking about the sheep are "descriptions" of what Christians do because they are one with Christ. They don't do these things to be saved in the end. It's a description of the life of Christ manifesting in them in some form.

The goats are unbelievers in Christ.

Good works does not in any form or shape save someone. For true Christians they are simply a by-product of the life of Christ in us.

There are thousands of good moral living - good deeds doing - people in many religions in the world and none of them turn into a sheep because of the good works they do. We become a sheep by believing Christ.

Get this backwards and we end up creating a works-based - works-righteousness religion that tries to mimic the life of Christ.

Grace,
Read what Paul says in Romans 14.
Especially Romans 14:12-13
Romans 14:16-18

Romans 15:4
Romans 15:31

The concept of obeying is throughout the New Testament.
You cannot get away from that.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Romans 14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Principles of Conscience

14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the [a]servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person [c]regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, [d]does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall [e]give praise to God.”

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
14 I know and am convinced [f]in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be [g]spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then [h]we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22 The faith which you have, have [j]as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.



Romans 15:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.




Romans 15:31 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

31 that I may be rescued from those who are disobedient in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may prove acceptable to the [a]saints;

 

[FranC]

No, actually it depended on what I did like 40 plus years ago when I exercised saving faith....I was saved then, am saved now and will be saved unto the day of redemption......sealed, justified and sanctified positionally in Christ forever......nice try, but my works do not embellish the finished works of Christ on my behalf!

Dcon
Christ finished HIS work.
When He said "it is finsihed" He meant the sacrifice for salvation. He meant what God had intended from the beginning. HIS work is finsihed.

Yours continues. Yours is NOT finished. The Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent when He ascended, will help you with the new life you have in Christ, but you are required to obey God. God never said not to obey Him.

Could you find anywhere in the N.T. where Jesus said that we are to do nothing but just believe in Him? And while you're at it, because I know the verse you're going to post, could you please explain what believe means. You must be good in the Greek.
What does believe mean in the Greek? I've asked before but you never answer.

Youre works DO embellish. Are you under sanctification or not? If you are, it's your works that please God.

Explain John 3:36 to me.

John 3:36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

So, the simple question (to which I cannot get a simple answer) is:

Are we to obey or not?
Can I get a Yes or No?

 

[FranC]

The problem is you actually have to be saved to understand the word.....when one believes a working for dogma, which is a false gospel of a different kind, one that is double cursed and no power..........explains a lot as to why the workers for have missed the boat..!

Are Jesus and John teaching us a different gospel of a different kind?

 

[FranC]

And you get offended when people make snide remarks directed at you........hilarious!

Happy to keep you entertained.

But your comment above makes no sense.

 

[FranC]

See your question is deceptive....do we do works to get, keep or maintain salvation.....that is your real question.....the answer no.....salvation is a once for all act based upon faith......

Ah. So you're also a believer of eternal salvation.
A very UNBIBLICAL concept.
No wonder you feel like you don't have to do anything at all and all the work is already done for you.

No wonder you criticize everyone who does not agree with you.
You feel like there might be danger and you fight the feeling all the way.

You should listen to your consciense.
Jesus and all the Writers require works...

And if you understood what sanctification is, you would not have made the comments above as to whether I believe in works
for attaining OR keeping salvation. You would know the answer.

You could still try:

Are we required to do good works?
Yes or No.