Not By Works

dokimos · Dec 26, 2018

I myself am still learning, but I must say, our cover and rest is in obedience to Jesus. We cannot see the spiritual realm with our eyes unless Jesus, for a purpose, reveals to us in dreams and visions, glimpses of the spiritual.

I do not want to get into heavy demonology, but sin welcomes in unclean spirits, spiritual torment and other such things. You are saved by the blood of Jesus if you do believe, but you WILL fall away if you make a practice of sinning. You will not lose your salvation, you will forfeit it and walk away from the protection and care of Jesus. When you become a part of God's kingdom, Satan immediately sends demons to attack you, to entice you into sinning.

Demons will implant BOGUS thoughts into your mind that aren't even your own thoughts like "Quit kidding yourself, God isn't even real, Jesus isn't real, and you are giving up on your entire life for a lie, you're missing out". You KNOW they aren't your thoughts because, if you are a believer, God has revealed His power to you, either with signs and wonders or by moving in some way that points to HIS existence, sovereign power and miracles. God performs miracles today to cement the faith of the humble hearted who have REPENTED due to His love and goodness. Once you repent, you will look back on your past in the distance, or even recent past and SEE GOD'S HAND ALL OVER YOUR LIFE. You are CALLED AND CHOSEN and you HAVE AN INHERITANCE, do not WALK AWAY from your inheritance. You have done nothing to earn an inheritance, but now that Jesus Christ is empowering you and has sent you HELP, do not waste such a glorious gift. Do not be enslaved again when He has set you free.

Faith and works? No. Faith that works.

Argueless · Dec 26, 2018

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. And YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.” Mark 7:6-13

Argueless · Dec 26, 2018

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived? We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:17-19

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

Magenta · Dec 26, 2018

dcontroversal · Dec 26, 2018

dokimos said:

I myself am still learning, but I must say, our cover and rest is in obedience to Jesus. We cannot see the spiritual realm with our eyes unless Jesus, for a purpose, reveals to us in dreams and visions, glimpses of the spiritual.

I do not want to get into heavy demonology, but sin welcomes in unclean spirits, spiritual torment and other such things. You are saved by the blood of Jesus if you do believe, but you WILL fall away if you make a practice of sinning. You will not lose your salvation, you will forfeit it and walk away from the protection and care of Jesus. When you become a part of God's kingdom, Satan immediately sends demons to attack you, to entice you into sinning.

Demons will implant BOGUS thoughts into your mind that aren't even your own thoughts like "Quit kidding yourself, God isn't even real, Jesus isn't real, and you are giving up on your entire life for a lie, you're missing out". You KNOW they aren't your thoughts because, if you are a believer, God has revealed His power to you, either with signs and wonders or by moving in some way that points to HIS existence, sovereign power and miracles. God performs miracles today to cement the faith of the humble hearted who have REPENTED due to His love and goodness. Once you repent, you will look back on your past in the distance, or even recent past and SEE GOD'S HAND ALL OVER YOUR LIFE. You are CALLED AND CHOSEN and you HAVE AN INHERITANCE, do not WALK AWAY from your inheritance. You have done nothing to earn an inheritance, but now that Jesus Christ is empowering you and has sent you HELP, do not waste such a glorious gift. Do not be enslaved again when He has set you free.

Faith and works? No. Faith that works.

Those that have ENTERED INTO HIS REST have CEASED FROM THEIR OWN LABORS.......

dokimos · Dec 26, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Beware brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God but exhort one another daily, while it is called 'Today' lest any of you be HARDENED by the deceitfulness of sin

We can harden our hearts, open ourselves up to attack and in the end begin to doubt our salvation! Wanting the protection of Jesus and keeping close with Him is not at all works. We do not have to work to be accepted by God. Jesus is our protection. God bless you.

dokimos · Dec 26, 2018

I do not see active avoidance of sin as a work, but an empowerment from Jesus and a really great gift to be given because of how much sin ruins our lives NOW. We can't even see it, but the spirit (inner) man is tormented, bruised and wounded with the acts of our sin.

dcontroversal · Dec 26, 2018

So what Seoche.....none of that equates to a works based salvation that is gained, kept or finished by works, law keeping and or commandment keeping.......

He that has entered into HIS REST has CEASED FROM HIS OWN LABOR!!!!

dokimos · Dec 26, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Well, exactly. There was little point in Christ's death if we were expected to keep the Law. I think our sin can harm our faith, which is what our foundation is. That spells big danger. Our sin is a spiritual problem for us. Our sin also causes suffering for ourselves and others.

Rightlydivided · Dec 26, 2018

dokimos said:

How can sin ruin your life when you are no longer under its jurisdiction? If you believe in Christ, that he died for the sin of the world, what makes you think that you are in bondage? You are free, and sin is no longer imputed upon you....if you condemn yourself, for what you alloweth....you are choosing to be under the law.....why go back into slavery? Paul was clear on this......many people are being seduced by corporate church doctrine....this is dangerous...how can you believe in Christ, and that he died for your sin (past, present, and future) and also impute the sin he died for upon yourself?

dokimos · Dec 26, 2018

Rightlydivided said:

Sin is harmful to ourselves and others, regardless of how anyone tries to paint it. You still have to deal with the consequences. If I gossip or backbite or betray someone's trust by lying, I will suffer the consequences on earth and the inner man will be tormented as well. Just an example.

dcontroversal · Dec 26, 2018

Rightlydivided said:

Like Paul said...it can make ship wreck of your faith and you become unusable by God...not the loss of salvation, but a ruined testimony and unusable in the way of service......

TruthTalk · Dec 26, 2018

dokimos said:

Hi dokimos, "doubt our salvation, harden our hearts, and being open to attacks?" Yes if my faith were in another god I would maybe believe this.

My God and my Lord is; Omnipotent; Omniscient; Omnipresent; He is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, the source of all wisdom and power and holiness, full of justice, goodness, and truth."

Quote dokimos: "We do not have to "work" to be accepted by God", why would you even suggest the need to "work", for Gods love, we are his very own children.

God bless you also. Exodus8:10, there is none like unto the LORD our God."

1John3:1

"See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him."

1Cornthians8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Exodus8:10
"And he said, Tomorrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God."

Rightlydivided · Dec 27, 2018

dcontroversal said:

speaking only to believers, as Paul did in the epistles, if you believe that Christ died for your sins, yet do not see the victory over it, I respectfully ask you.. If god sending his only son to save you, to take you from under its jurisdiction as a slave, and no longer impute sin upon you.....

dcontroversal said:

I am in perfect agreement with you....as Paul went further to speak on how to react to sin.....Sin is a waste of time, to you or anyone in your proximity, it has no power any longer...we have victory in Christ as the lamb of god, it is you who say “oh wretched man I am” it is your flesh.....I agree with you that it can harm you, but sin was made manifest by the law, without the law it is dead....Paul wants us to learn that is has no power over the believer....unfortunately corporate church doctrine seems to want you to impute sin ypon yourself, as though you are in bondage.....you are not, you are free......and if you sin, you simply see it as a waste of time, you do not condemn yourself, or judge your brethren for it..as Paul said....everything is lawful unto me, yet not everything is expedient.

Rightlydivided · Dec 27, 2018

Repent of what?

VCO · Dec 27, 2018

dokimos said:

Proverbs 22:8 (ASV)
8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap calamity; And the rod of his wrath shall fail.

2 Corinthians 9:6 (ASV)
6 But this I say, He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he that soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

There is what I think you are trying to say.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 27, 2018

Argueless said:

Hi Argueless,
I agree with your posts but I have to say that I don't think it's right to say that anyone here does not obey God's commandments. You were speaking to @dcontroversal above, but it could be about anyone.

We don't know if anyone obeys God or not...my guess would be that they do their best to do what God wants them to do. There are two ways of understanding OSAS.

One way is to believe in our Lord and to follow His commandments and believe that it's HE that is keeping a person and all is attributed to Him. Although this is not biblically correct and our actions do matter....it's an acceptable form of OSAS.

Another way to understand OSAS is to say that we can do whatever we want to and still be saved. I've have read a couple of posters on this very thread say this. On a different forum, one poster stated that we could blaspheme the Holy Spirit (curse Him) and still be saved because Jesus will protect us.
This is totally unacceptable.

The problem lies with who is reading this thread. If it's a mature Christian we could discuss and disagree and continue with that. But if one is a new Christian it's not RIGHT to teach OSAS because, quite simply, it's not biblical.

Now, I've posted the ECF's here and I've been told they're not inspired.
Was John Calvin inspired? He changed the nature of God ! But I guess he knew more than the ECF's.

And who were the ECF's?

Clement (Bishop) of Rome was taught by Paul
Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr.....were taught by Peter.
Polycarp (bishop) of Smrna, Irenaeus....were taught by John.
(and others)

Who do YOU suppose knew more?
And what do you suppose these persons believed about OSAS?
Right. They didn't.
They spoke about how we're to maintain our salvation once achieved.

We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.

. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105)

We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.

We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.

and much more.....

Budman · Dec 27, 2018

I'll never understand the "works for salvation" crowd.

They're sinners, demanding that other sinners, stop sinning.

dokimos · Dec 27, 2018

Budman said:

Yup I think they forget that our sin begins in our minds and hearts, your thoughts can be continuously evil even if the outside of the cup is cleansed. If you get into that sinless perfection mindset you begin to judge and your thoughts become evil. Instead we must have the tax collector's mind "Be merciful to me, God, I am a sinner"

TruthTalk · Dec 27, 2018

Rightlydivided said:

Hi Rightlydivided, and welcome to the forum and "Not By Works" thread.

I reckon your question "repent of what?" is referring to your post above to dcontroversal about the fact that "we are free" and, "everything is lawful unto me, yet not everything is expedient." I agree with you wholeheartedly.

The true gospel of Christ is a gift from God; 8)"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9) "Not By Works", so that no one can boast." (Eph2:8,9); You cannot work for God's salvation, you cannot merit God's salvation period. And who would refuse such a wonderful gift?

Agreed, "repent of what?"

The Wages of Sin: Is nailed to the cross.

Colossians2:14
"having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross."

1Peter3:18
18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God

Romans6:14 - 6:17
14) "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."
17) But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. 18) You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

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