Not By Works

[BillG]

By your sins choking your faith out

Maybe you can explain the process of his this happens.

I agree with TT, I do not believe the parable of the sower applies here.

But if you do please expand along with other thoughts you have.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Parable of the sower

This does not support what you said.

The seeds which was had their life choked out never produced fruit. Are you claiming that a person who believes but before he produced any fruit whatsoever his belief is choked out was ever saved?

 

[Magenta]

 

[VCO]

Hi Argueless,
I agree with your posts but I have to say that I don't think it's right to say that anyone here does not obey God's commandments. You were speaking to @dcontroversal above, but it could be about anyone.

We don't know if anyone obeys God or not...my guess would be that they do their best to do what God wants them to do. There are two ways of understanding OSAS.

Error 1. One way is to believe in our Lord and to follow His commandments and believe that it's HE that is keeping a person and all is attributed to Him. Although this is not biblically correct and our actions do matter....it's an acceptable form of OSAS.

Error 2. Another way to understand OSAS is to say that we can do whatever we want to and still be saved. I've have read a couple of posters on this very thread say this. On a different forum, one poster stated that we could blaspheme the Holy Spirit (curse Him) and still be saved because Jesus will protect us.
This is totally unacceptable.

The problem lies with who is reading this thread. If it's a mature Christian we could discuss and disagree and continue with that. But if one is a new Christian it's not RIGHT to teach OSAS because, quite simply, it's not biblical.

. . .
and much more.....

SO HOW COME YOU TOTALLY IGNORE THE TRUTH, THAT I HAVE TOLD TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES about OSAS?

Is it Pure Ignorance about what we Teach and Believe?

Perhaps, because it DOES NOT FIT your habitual Ridicule of OSAS?


Psalm 123:4 (NIV)
4 We have endured much ridicule from the proud, much contempt from the arrogant.


There is a THIRD WAY OF UNDERSTANDING OSAS.


1. YOU are totally Saved the moment your exercise SAVING FAITH, 1 Cor. 12:3, that includes Repentance and Receiving Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER, John 1:12-13, John 3:36, John 5:24, when the HOLY SPIRIT enters your HEART (Human Spirit), John 14:16-17, Eph 1:13, 1 Cor. 6:19, 1Th. 1:5, you are BORN AGAIN, and HE births your human spirit INTO ETERNAL LIFE, John 3:6-7, John 6:47, 1 John 5:11 .

2. THAT moment HE COMES IN, HE pours GOD's LOVE into your HEART, Rom. 5:5, and the Scriptures say HE WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU, John 14:16, Heb. 13:5. That LOVE IN YOUR HEART (Human Spirit), is like a Seed that is Planted in your fertile soil of your HEART, Mark 4:27-28, Mat. 13:8-9, Mat. 13:23, Luke 6:45. HE immerses (Baptizes) you into the Spiritual Body of CHRIST. YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT IS SAVED ETERNALLY AT THAT TIME, John 10:27-29, Eph. 2:4-9, 1 Tim. 1:16, 1 Cor. 2:7-13.

3. NOW as that LOVE IN YOU SPROUTS, it will BE the Same kind of LOVE, that GOD POURED in THERE. That LOVE Begins to WORKS on the Human Body or Flesh, to get it to CONFORM to the Image of Christ, a life long struggle to become more and more LIKE CHRIST. THAT PROSCESS is called SANCTIFICATION. SALVATION IS OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT, and the Process of becoming like Christ in our Christian WALK is SANCTIFICATION. Two different Processes, and saying they are the same, is an ERROR, like comparing Apples to Oranges.

4. NOW that your LOVE for GOD is the SAME kind of LOVE HE planted into your HEART, has SPROUTED. YOU WILL WANT TO SHOW YOUR OBEDIENCE AS PART OF THAT LOVE. The MIND of YOUR SPIRIT will be at WAR with the MIND of your FLESH, fighting for control at first, but the more you FEED YOUR Human Spirit on the WORD OF GOD; it will become Dominate over your Mind of Flesh. So as you spiritually Mature, you will SIN LESS, and LESS, and LESS; But your FLESH because of the inherited SIN NATURE from ADAM, will not be PERFECT, until you receive the GLORIFIED BODY at the Resurrection.

5. YOUR CHRISTIAN WALK, will include climbing into a Baptistery, or Lake, or River, as a Public Identification with CHRIST. To FOLLOW in obedience to the Example that Christ has set. The Holy Spirit PUTS HUNGER for the WORD in YOU, and a Sense of I WANT TO OBEY HIM because I LOVE HIM. We Learn to LOVE the Brethren, and others, with that SAME KIND OF LOVE GOD POURED INTO OUR HEARTS. We learn to watch, and to be aware of the genuine NEEDS that You can meet. The HOLY SPIRIT will put in the Mind of the Spirit, the THINGS He wants us to DO. Even if HE has to YELL at YOU. (I had HIM yell at me one time, when HE WANTED ME TO PICK UP A HITCH HIKER, and I put that car in a dead stop from 65 mph, with all four wheels sliding.) You will learn to tell the difference between the HOLY SPIRIT TEACHING YOU, and just your mind wondering.

6. SPIRITUAL LESSONS, are when the Holy Spirit is TEACHING, mostly from SCRIPTURE ITSELF. You get a DEEPER Understandings from those Scriptures, than those without the Spirit in them. You NEED to listen to MAKE SURE it is not a DEMON, and THEN listen HIM attentively. He guild you in your Christen Walk, show Specific Verses that Pertain to your current Situation, Fill your HEART WITH JOY, With Godly LOVE, PEACE WITH GOD, Give you ASSURANCE OF YOUR SALVATION with NOT EVEN A SINGLE DOUBT, Lead you to SOUND DOCTRINE, ETC. Oh YES, it is ALL TRUE.

7. EVERY bit of 3. to 7., is part of Sanctification. HE WILL FINISH HIS WORK on your flesh, AT THE RESURRECTION.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:20-21 (HCSB)
20 but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
21 He will transform the body [.Note: HE has ALREADY transformed the Human Spirit, that is Born Again.] of our humble condition into the likeness of His glorious body, by the power that enables Him to subject everything to Himself.


NOW THAT IS THE TRUE DOCTRINE OF OSAS, or ETERNAL SECURITY IN CHRIST.

No TRUE Born Again Christian EVER walks away from Christ, never to return.


1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[dcontroversal]

I'll never understand the "works for salvation" crowd.

They're sinners, demanding that other sinners, stop sinning.

And to add....we must help Jesus do that which he said he would do......and by default their view states clearly that Christ, his work, his promises and his power is not sufficient to save us!

 

[dokimos]

Your sin will create worldly cares, and continuing in sin, we often respond with worldly solutions that snuff out the redemptive power of Jesus in your life. You will neglect the redeeming power of Jesus. You are relying on your own strength, your own will to solve problems created by your sin. It is a vicious cycle. Sin begets sin. Repentance towards God is the answer here. The more you sin willfully, deliberately, the more you block out the grace of God by rejecting His answers, His way of doing things and you dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and that hopelessness from being in that hole is what snuffs out our faith, our BELIEF. Of course, you can argue that such a person never was saved to begin with, but not all will argue or teach that. This is obviously a process that takes time.

I am a protestant, not a Catholic.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your sin will create worldly cares, and continuing in sin, we often respond with worldly solutions that snuff out the redemptive power of Jesus in your life. You will neglect the redeeming power of Jesus. You are relying on your own strength, your own will to solve problems created by your sin. It is a vicious cycle. Sin begets sin. Repentance towards God is the answer here. The more you sin willfully, deliberately, the more you block out the grace of God by rejecting His answers, His way of doing things and you dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and that hopelessness from being in that hole is what snuffs out our faith, our BELIEF. Of course, you can argue that such a person never was saved to begin with, but not all will argue or teach that. This is obviously a process that takes time.

I am a protestant, not a Catholic.

John said a child of God can not sin.

So this would sort of negate your thinking.. If A child of God can not live in sin, then sin would never overtake them to the point they could even possibly lose faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, and we all sin, so we all have this issue.

So instead of worrying about god taking your salvation. I think we shoudl worry about serving and loving others. Which is the way God said we by prqc tice do not sin

It seems that the workers for, Cainologists and Pharisee cannot help but conflate scriptural truths and in so doing peddle that which is false....the following "conflated" issues lead to more errors than anything else probably....

a. Justification with sanctification
b. Salvation with fellowship
c. Grace with works
d. Faith for with faith/works for salvation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems that the workers for, Cainologists and Pharisee cannot help but conflate scriptural truths and in so doing peddle that which is false....the following "conflated" issues lead to more errors than anything else probably....

a. Justification with sanctification
b. Salvation with fellowship
c. Grace with works
d. Faith for with faith/works for salvation

I sadly think they have no comprehenion of what true saving faith even looks like..

 

[dcontroversal]

I am about sick of you people who have no idea what people believe concerning things, comeing in here and trying to push your view of what they believe as if it is some form of truth.

Neither one of these two examples are correct. For once in your lives can you sit still for a minutem open your minds and your hearts. And try to really understand what it means???

Look......the road to hell is paved with religion and good intentions.....in order for one to actually see the truth they must sit their false religion aside and be willing to actually open their eyes.....just think.....right now on the planet the majority of religuonists are as lost as can be................!!!!!

 

[dokimos]

John said a child of God can not sin.

So this would sort of negate your thinking.. If A child of God can not live in sin, then sin would never overtake them to the point they could even possibly lose faith.

You don't lose your salvation because you sinned, to be clear, but running to sin leads to the process that little by little snuffs out your BELIEF in God's power to save. Avoidance of sin is good and should not be discouraged for the sake of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

I guess it is all a matter of who believes who is saved.

 

[dcontroversal]

I sadly think they have no comprehenion of what true saving faith even looks like..

Obviously......deceived and deceiving.....!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't believe God will take your salvation, but that can forfeit it.

Wrong........

a. Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith he begins in us...

b. If we believe not (after belief) HE ABIDES FAITHFUL BECAUSE HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF (REFER TO A)

What you say above states clearly that you do not believe A and B above...

Either Jesus finishes and completes it or he is an inept liar that cannot save anyone!

I believe he KEEPS HIS WORD AND PROMISES!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obviously......deceived and deceiving.....!!!

I am not sure which is worse. Those who think they can no longer sin, Or those. Who think. They still sin, but. Water down the law so Far, They can’t see how horrific God is at those sins and apart from Grace would be in Dire need of Salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

By the way. There is no way possible my sin could choke my faith out. If I sin, Then the HS convicts me of that sin in chastening.. if nothing else. That makes my faith stronger. Because only if I lack chastening would my faith weaken, because if I am not chastened, am I really saved (the word say I am most likely illegitament and not a true child)

I was a prodigal son for 5 years. During that 5 years. I commited many worldly sins. Yet throughout that whole time. My faith did not die. It was tested.. But it was Gods chastening which brought me back. WHich strengthened my faith not the other way around.

As scripture ays, it is the knowledge I hve eternal life which keeps me in faith. I would only lose faith or choke it out if I stopped trusting God to keep me secure in him and keep his promise. If I lost faith that my eternity was secure, then and ONLY THEN could I lose faith. And if this is the case, Did you ever have faith to begin with? I would say no. (My view)

Written to believers--->Where sin abounds, Grace abounds the more!

 

[dcontroversal]

I am not sure which is worse. Those who think they can no longer sin, Or those. Who think. They still sin, but. Water down the law so Far, They can’t see how horrific God is at those sins and apart from Grace would be in Dire need of Salvation.

The "boat" is full of both views........if you get the drift!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You don't lose your salvation because you sinned, to be clear, but running to sin leads to the process that little by little snuffs out your BELIEF in God's power to save. Avoidance of sin is good and should not be discouraged for the sake of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

I am sorry, But this to me is The same as saying You lose salvation because of sin.

And it does not matter, As I showed, John said they can not sin, so in. Reality, there would be no danger or possibility of sin snuffing Out Our belief.

I guess it is all a matter of who believes who is saved.

I think it matter on who has true saving faith vs those who merely belief. No one is saved based on mere belief.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen Magenta....keep swinging.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Sorry, But I do not agree.. There is ony one gospel. Not multiple gospels. And since many of us place our faith in different gospels. We all CAN NOT BE BROTHERS AND SISTERS.


I am not the one who continually says OSAS states something it does not. As so many people in here (yourself included) have been doing over and over and over. Why do you think I am so sick of it> Because it happens FAR TO OFTEN



Ever heard of Eternal Life? Ever heard of the fact we HAVE IT (not may get it)

Ever heard the terms jesus said that they will never hunger, never thirst, live forever, never die. Will never be lost, Be assured they WILL be risen on the last day and have eternal life (john 3,4 and 6)

Ever heard the saying we HAVE BEEN justified.

Ever heard the saying we HAVE BEEN sanctified and WASHED

Ever heard the words we have been given the spirit as a pledge until when? The day of redemption (no other requirments are mentioned because there are no other requirements we can fulfill)

Ever heard the word he will NEVER let us go no matter what? (No matter what means that No matter what even you trying to let go of his hand)

Ever heard the saying that God gives the right to certain people to become his chikdren? Who are those people (Those who RECIEVE HIM)


Ever heard the term faith (we are saved by grace through faith) And what it means?

Who are those who have faith? Are they people who do not trust Christ to completely save them and keep his promises to them? NO!!

OSAS or eternal security or eternal life or whatever you ant to call it is not an excuse to sin, It is an admition we are sinners and CONTINUE to need help overcoming sin and our flesh. If people use it to excuse their sin, does this mean they are saved? They are no more saved than a legalist who claims one must earn or maintain salvation or it can be lost. Their faith is in SELF. Not GOD.

I just started to show you what God said and where my faith comes from. If salvation is not eternal GOD LIED. You want to make God a liar. Feel free. But stop telling people I believe something I do not believe based on your IGNORANCE or REFUSAL to listen to what I believe!

Funny how many believe in their mind that just because people name Jesus that they are all in the same boat.....they cannot grasp and or dismiss the truth that most of so called Christianity teaches the exact same gospel that places one into the MANY group that Jesus rejects...

a. They claim Jesus as LORD
b. They fully expect to enter based upon what they have done in His name

The above is faith plus works for salvation when boiled down!

 

[Rightlydivided]

Thank you Truthtalk, and thank you for your response, it was refreshing to read how you laid out what many of us feel in our hearts with scripture as support.