Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
So are you against the disease of the Westminster Confession as well?
Consider the fact that there is no Calvinism per se. It is just a contrivance, a label.
The Reformation was a deviation to the mean: from Rome back to biblical accuracy
You believe the reformed church is correct because you agree with it.
I understand what you mean about it being changed since THE reformation....
However, it does NOT go back to Rome.
The early church believed everyone could be saved, not just the ones God chose to be saved.
Do you know any legitimate church fathers that believed in the predestination of souls?
Augustine believed in a form of predestination---but he was the only one that taught anything similar to determinism.

Anyone else??
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
True, but even the action on our part (the good we do that is acceptable before God) is due to faith alone on account of Christ alone.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Sometimes I worry about what people mean by their statements.

We can surely say that God is sovereign and nothing happens unless HE wants it to.
However, I do see a difference between causing something to happen and allowing something to happen.

Even when we sin God is allowing our free will to take over and He just steps out of the way and lets it happen.

I do agree that it's our faith that makes us want to please God.
But I also believe it's my free will to make the right choice --- WHEN I DO make the right choice.
Otherwise why would Paul tell us not to tire in doing good if it was not by our intention?
Galatians 6:9
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I don't know why these 'isms' are so hard to accept. All it is is a stream of like minded Christians flowing from the blood of Jesus.

Different ministrations?

Don't try to tell me the perfect has come when we have members of one body shooting arrows at each other. Directed moreso at another thread but am being lazy.

Looks like a war zone here at times.
Some here make it a war zone instead of having a civil discussion...
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Godsgrace101...

Sanctifation is Gods Spirit within us. He may direct us to move but the ability is His. Unless you are talking about baking a cake for your new neighbor. That's cultural.
Baking a cake for a neighbor is doing a good work/deed.
I had to decide to bake the cake.
I had to decide to do a good deed.
I took the ingredients out of the cupboard and put them together.

Yes. I take some credit. You think this is taking God's sovereignty away from Him?
Or the glory that belongs to Him?

There's no such thing as "cultural".
Every move we make is either either going to please God or displease God.

God can direct me to move---
But I'M the one that has to move.

The Holy Spirit is our helper...not our dictator.
John 14:26
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Baking a cake for a neighbor is doing a good work/deed.
I had to decide to bake the cake.
I had to decide to do a good deed.
I took the ingredients out of the cupboard and put them together.

Yes. I take some credit. You think this is taking God's sovereignty away from Him?
Or the glory that belongs to Him?

There's no such thing as "cultural".
Every move we make is either either going to please God or displease God.

God can direct me to move---
But I'M the one that has to move.

The Holy Spirit is our helper...not our dictator.
John 14:26
🤔
.....
your desire to do good comes from a God given heart and the Holy spirit working in you <- He deserves the credit
....you are just walking according to who He made you, and who He still encourages you to be and grow into

(any credit we DO recieve ought to come from Him as well and not ourself)

if you decided halfway through that the cake smells good and you want to eat it all
<-you deserve the credit

(imo)
 
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
ATTN: Rightlydivided

I am back, the Dr. actually called in sick. There is a major flu epidemic in Omaha, and she lives in Omaha. Now let, me expain. We had two people at different times in the Past, that REFUSED to give us a hint what kind of Church they hail from, one of them was proven to be a Mormon, and I am not sure about the other, but there were strong cult-like false doctrines that the person wanted to present. I admit, when you refused to tell us what type of Church you are from, I wronging thought "Here we go again!" So I want to apologize again.

I can be friends with anybody that shows they are genuine Christians, even if we disagree on certain issues, as long as they do not include these absolutes:

Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
Coequal Deity of Jesus Christ.
The Importance of an attitude towards Repentance.
Absolute Necessity to be Born Again by the Holy Spirit.
SALVATION has nothing to do with WORKS, and Works to finish off Salvation, would be a FALSE GOSPEL.
Obedience is NOT part of SALVATION, but during the SANCTIFICATION Process, IT SPAWNS FROM OUR LOVE.


Apart from those ABSOLUTE ISSUES, I can agree to disagree, and still remain friends.
Hi VCO!, I just saw this, thank you for your kind response, for there is no better way to learn LOVE than from our elders in Christ! Your apology was not necessary, but I’m happy you did, only for the intent, as to show your heart is open to the word of God, and what it means to be humble, a characteristic, I’m quickly realizing, as a fruit, to recognizing those in Christ.. when I see it, I know I am among brothers. I read your posts and see my roots, you have an amazing testimony, and a walk that reaches out to others all the time..Thank you for your friendship, I know it comes from Christ in you. 70 years sir! You won’t get an ounce of disrespect from me! I hope you appointment went well!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,606
1,787
113
Baking a cake for a neighbor is doing a good work/deed.
I had to decide to bake the cake.
I had to decide to do a good deed.
I took the ingredients out of the cupboard and put them together.

Yes. I take some credit. You think this is taking God's sovereignty away from Him?
Or the glory that belongs to Him?

There's no such thing as "cultural".
Every move we make is either either going to please God or displease God.

God can direct me to move---
But I'M the one that has to move.

The Holy Spirit is our helper...not our dictator.
John 14:26
Well yes there is such thing as cultural. I've always known to welcome neighbors into the community. Some do, some don't. It's not necessarily from the Lord leading, but could be. Mostly, IMO, it's just something people do.

A natural man/woman acts either good or bad.

The Spiritual man/woman is led and enabled.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
🤔
.....
your desire to do good comes from a God given heart and the Holy spirit working in you <- He deserves the credit
....you are just walking according to who He made you, and who He still encourages you to be and grow into

(any credit we DO recieve ought to come from Him as well and not ourself)

if you decided halfway through that the cake smells good and you want to eat it all
<-you deserve the credit

(imo)
I agree with you NNM.

I just don't like to hear that God does it all....
That takes away our responsibility.
As I've said before....IF God does it all, He's also responsible for our sin when we fail.

This scripture came to mind just now:
Mathew 6:1
Mathew 6:16

Mathew 6:1 tells us not to practice our righteousness before men...IOW, do not do it for men, but for God. Even unbelievers bake cakes for their neighbors --- but we do it for the glory of God (especially if they know we're Christian - it's a good testimony, as is any good work).

Mathew 6:16 tell us that if we do works for men...we already have our reward.
How?
By the thanks or admiration we get from men. This would be our reward, instead of the approval we get from God if we're quite about what we do.

There's a however here though.
If we do good deeds, and persons that know us see God in us, this is a good thing.
We just have to make sure we're doing it for God and not our self -grandisement.

Do YOU get any credit at all (quietly) for following the call of the Holy Spirit??
I like to give you the credit for following our God.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Well yes there is such thing as cultural. I've always known to welcome neighbors into the community. Some do, some don't. It's not necessarily from the Lord leading, but could be. Mostly, IMO, it's just something people do.

A natural man/woman acts either good or bad.

The Spiritual man/woman is led and enabled.
I agree.
Colossians 3:23
23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
I agree with you NNM.

I just don't like to hear that God does it all....
That takes away our responsibility.
As I've said before....IF God does it all, He's also responsible for our sin when we fail.

This scripture came to mind just now:
Mathew 6:1
Mathew 6:16

Mathew 6:1 tells us not to practice our righteousness before men...IOW, do not do it for men, but for God. Even unbelievers bake cakes for their neighbors --- but we do it for the glory of God (especially if they know we're Christian - it's a good testimony, as is any good work).

Mathew 6:16 tell us that if we do works for men...we already have our reward.
How?
By the thanks or admiration we get from men. This would be our reward, instead of the approval we get from God if we're quite about what we do.

There's a however here though.
If we do good deeds, and persons that know us see God in us, this is a good thing.
We just have to make sure we're doing it for God and not our self -grandisement.

Do YOU get any credit at all (quietly) for following the call of the Holy Spirit??
I like to give you the credit for following our God.
Well.... if there is any credit to be had.... couldn't it be boiled down to being honest with ourself in regards to what He reveals to us... wether it is the gospel of Jesus through His Word or wether we should examine ourself because of the Holy Spirit and examine ourself according to His standards....
I can say that I was called from unbelief... and at first didn't want to believe... but because I believed I couldn't escape the fear..

I don't take credit for hearing...or believing... or seeking...

I don't deserve credit for being made new, or the desire to conform to Him

I do deserve the credit when I don't follow Him and stumble... that was my bad

but if there IS any credit I get for any step that I took.... I can't be the one to decide


because I am often reminded how much I do need Him for everything
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,606
1,787
113
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,

10 the 24 elders bow down and worship in front of the one who sits on the throne, the one who lives forever and ever. They throw their victor's crowns in front of the throne and say,

11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory, honor, and power, because you created all things; they came into existence and were created because of your will."

These scriptures made a huge impression on me as a young believer. Will we be able to keep crowns? I tend to believe that we will cast any rewards at His feet too, when we see Him.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Well.... if there is any credit to be had.... couldn't it be boiled down to being honest with ourself in regards to what He reveals to us... wether it is the gospel of Jesus through His Word or wether we should examine ourself because of the Holy Spirit and examine ourself according to His standards....
I can say that I was called from unbelief... and at first didn't want to believe... but because I believed I couldn't escape the fear..

I don't take credit for hearing...or believing... or seeking...

I don't deserve credit for being made new, or the desire to conform to Him

I do deserve the credit when I don't follow Him and stumble... that was my bad

but if there IS any credit I get for any step that I took.... I can't be the one to decide


because I am often reminded how much I do need Him for everything
Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing.
Of course, He meant nothing for the Kingdom of God...since even atheists do things, but not for the Kingdom.

We're new creatures because we now believe from above, as Jesus said in John 3.

But listen to this:
Why does Paul tell us to present ourselves a living sacrifice?
Romans 12:1

Why does he tell us how to behave in every letter he wrote...here are just two:
Romans 13:6-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12

If God did everything for us, Paul would not be speaking to us about how to behave all the time.
It must surely mean that WE have some decision to make to follow the rule of God when we take some action or do not take some action.

Maybe we're getting giving credit to God with saying He does everything?

Dinner time!
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
While I fully agree that Christianity is growing cold and we see many beginning to become more worldly in their walk, we cannot alleviate that by the word "AND" the apostasy is tied unto the Man of Sin and his revealing.......just saying.....

2nd Thessalonians 2


I absolutely agree with you. But if we can relate scripture to what is happening then we do have an idea of what is taking place. Like the church today definitely is having a great falling away. We can definitely relate the condition of the church to the 7th church mentioned in Revelation (Laodecia). The church status basically lines up perfect to what Laodecia was described as.

The best we can ever do is to guess. And I don't believe guessing we are getting closer to the end by what we see is wrong. I believe claiming specifics is wrong, like the end will definitely come tomorrow. But using scripture and what is currently happening in the world and church is not wrong to connect them. Jesus said we would know by the weather (look at how different this winter is and the tornadoes and multiple hurricanes happening), we would know by the signs of the times (we went 30 years ago from helping people to now we walk past a man beating his wife and pretend we never saw it)...I'm just stating there are clues we are seeing. It does not gives us anything specific, but we do get a general idea of what could be happening.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,254
3,719
113
Hi VCO!, I just saw this, thank you for your kind response, for there is no better way to learn LOVE than from our elders in Christ! Your apology was not necessary, but I’m happy you did, only for the intent, as to show your heart is open to the word of God, and what it means to be humble, a characteristic, I’m quickly realizing, as a fruit, to recognizing those in Christ.. when I see it, I know I am among brothers. I read your posts and see my roots, you have an amazing testimony, and a walk that reaches out to others all the time..Thank you for your friendship, I know it comes from Christ in you. 70 years sir! You won’t get an ounce of disrespect from me! I hope you appointment went well!
They diagnosed Atrial Fibrillation, that is where your heart in the upper chamber does no function correctly. It can on occasion just flutter, not getting enough of the blood out, which can cause blood clots in the upper part of the heart. When those blood clots break off, then can go to the brain, causing a Stroke. I had 7 in the past two YEARS, 5 mini strokes and two major strokes, and this is the first time anyone has come up with that diagnoses. They put me on a stronger Blood Thinner, is all they can do for it. It is the type that I need to be careful about injuries, because what may be a minor bruise to someone else, could potentially cause a dangerous blood clot in me.

My personnel goal, is to out live my Dad by 10 years. Dad out lived his Dad by 10 years, and Dad had a massive heart attack at 72, so I want to live until I reach 82, and then the Lord can call me home. Actually that is just a want, and HE can call me home anytime HE wants.
 
Aug 2, 2013
109
12
18
Augustine believed in a form of predestination---but he was the only one that taught anything similar to determinism.
Calvin was influenced by Augustine. Some claim that in the former's Institutes Augustine was referenced nearly 400x, and in Calvin's works as a whole 1700x. In the Institutes Calvin writes, "And this is the meaning of Augustine (whom we quote more frequently, as being the best and most faithful witness of all antiquity). Institutes Book 4 Chapter 14.26
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing.
Of course, He meant nothing for the Kingdom of God...since even atheists do things, but not for the Kingdom.

We're new creatures because we now believe from above, as Jesus said in John 3.

But listen to this:
Why does Paul tell us to present ourselves a living sacrifice?
Romans 12:1

Why does he tell us how to behave in every letter he wrote...here are just two:
Romans 13:6-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12

If God did everything for us, Paul would not be speaking to us about how to behave all the time.
It must surely mean that WE have some decision to make to follow the rule of God when we take some action or do not take some action.

"Maybe we're getting giving credit to God with saying He does everything?"

Dinner time!


"Why does Paul tell us to present ourselves a living sacrifice?"
_______
This is encouragement for us to do well. Which you agree is only possible through Him. Sheep are supposed to follow the Shepard...it's when they don't that they deserve the credit for the direction of their steps...the Shepard has His ways of speaking to them.... sometimes through encouragement.



Maybe we're getting giving credit to God with saying He does everything?
_____________
Hahaha
Is the credit really mine to give?
🤔🤔🤔




I hope you enjoy your meal🙂
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,619
2,526
113
Sometimes I worry about what people mean by their statements.

We can surely say that God is sovereign and nothing happens unless HE wants it to.
However, I do see a difference between causing something to happen and allowing something to happen.

Even when we sin God is allowing our free will to take over and He just steps out of the way and lets it happen.

I do agree that it's our faith that makes us want to please God.
But I also believe it's my free will to make the right choice --- WHEN I DO make the right choice.
Otherwise why would Paul tell us not to tire in doing good if it was not by our intention?
Galatians 6:9
Actually, it is God at work within that want's us to please Him...

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13 KJV)

Apart from the grace of God (even as born gain Christians) we would end back up feeding off the husks of this world.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV)
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing.
Of course, He meant nothing for the Kingdom of God...since even atheists do things, but not for the Kingdom.

We're new creatures because we now believe from above, as Jesus said in John 3.

But listen to this:
Why does Paul tell us to present ourselves a living sacrifice?
Romans 12:1

Why does he tell us how to behave in every letter he wrote...here are just two:
Romans 13:6-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12

If God did everything for us, Paul would not be speaking to us about how to behave all the time.
It must surely mean that WE have some decision to make to follow the rule of God when we take some action or do not take some action.

Maybe we're getting giving credit to God with saying He does everything?

Dinner time!
274948" said:
giving credit to God with saying He does everything?
Hi Fran, why do you continue to say, "God does every thing?" He has prepared work for us to do from before hand. No Christian is saying God does everything only you are. Growing in grace and the knowledge of our Savior is our daily walk and has nothing to do with "keeping ourselves saved, God does that, "Not By Works"

We are saved by grace through faith and that "not of yourself", why is this truth so difficult to understand. Our works that Christians produce are evidence of our salvation works do not save nor keep you saved. You are teaching a "grace pus works" gospel just say it and tell the truth.

The bible say's; "Now to Him who is able", not you are able; a difficult lesson for some to learn, why? Because of "pride the original sin." You are teaching a counterfeit gospel, "works plus grace."

I do not understand why if God saves us; it is a gift, not by works, lest anyone boast", why you can not believe that He will bring us to completion.

Jude 1:24,25
24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you unblemished in His glorious presence, with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all time, and now, and for all eternity.
Amen.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,118
20,045
113
I absolutely agree with you. But if we can relate scripture to what is happening then we do have an idea of what is taking place. Like the church today definitely is having a great falling away. We can definitely relate the condition of the church to the 7th church mentioned in Revelation (Laodecia). The church status basically lines up perfect to what Laodecia was described as.

The best we can ever do is to guess. And I don't believe guessing we are getting closer to the end by what we see is wrong. I believe claiming specifics is wrong, like the end will definitely come tomorrow. But using scripture and what is currently happening in the world and church is not wrong to connect them. Jesus said we would know by the weather (look at how different this winter is and the tornadoes and multiple hurricanes happening), we would know by the signs of the times (we went 30 years ago from helping people to now we walk past a man beating his wife and pretend we never saw it)...I'm just stating there are clues we are seeing. It does not gives us anything specific, but we do get a general idea of what could be happening.
While I agree with the fact that many churches are very worldly I have never bought into the the 7 churches listed in Revelation as stages that the church will go thru. I fully believe that they represent the types of churches that will be on the planet from the 1st church to the end of the age......

I fully agree that we can look around and see many identifying characteristics that point to the nearness of the end of the age.....After all...John wrote some 2,000 years ago that were were in the last days.......and Peter wrote the night is far spent.......we are very close it seems for sure......