Not By Works
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I disagree with your strawmen.....
first you're trying to bait me into being emotional like you with the "cute" statement
while building your own narrative for me to follow
"oh if this, then that and if this then that"
you also are always saying it's like a war zone
then i post some verses which go directly against your teaching....
you come at me funny
youre saying a mature brother in christ like mmd doesnt learn from the bible
and make all these subtle bait and switches like
"why are you against works"
thats why TT thinks youre banned
on top of that all
you dont understand Gods grace
i wish you the best
i really do
but dont come at me sideways like this
examine it
please
first you're trying to bait me into being emotional like you with the "cute" statement
while building your own narrative for me to follow
"oh if this, then that and if this then that"
you also are always saying it's like a war zone
then i post some verses which go directly against your teaching....
you come at me funny
youre saying a mature brother in christ like mmd doesnt learn from the bible
and make all these subtle bait and switches like
"why are you against works"
thats why TT thinks youre banned
on top of that all
you dont understand Gods grace
i wish you the best
i really do
but dont come at me sideways like this
examine it
please
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E
No jesus did not, he taught a grace gospel based on his work, as paul said, grace and qorks can not mix, it is one or the other.
Either way keep it up, you keep giving us further prove you do teach works even thoug you deny it,
Jesus did not contradict himself, if you think you can make yourself worthy, feel free, but keep it to yourself, the jews thought the same thing, and we see where it got them
Either way keep it up, you keep giving us further prove you do teach works even thoug you deny it,
Jesus did not contradict himself, if you think you can make yourself worthy, feel free, but keep it to yourself, the jews thought the same thing, and we see where it got them
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You were the one who told me that I really should forget about the CC and that it affects me too much..., yet it's you who teaches that when the N.T. speaks of WORKS, it means the "works under the law" (which is taught by the RCC) and you also like to quote the church fathers a lot in your efforts to back up your doctrine (and so does the RCC). I DO stick with the Bible and have quoted numerous verses from the Bible to back up my doctrine.
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How do you rectify the past tense verbiage in these verses? Except when you realize that Salvation is the work of the HOLY SPIRIT on our Human Spirit, the moment of we Genuinely Believe. The physical part of us, is a separate process whereby we by the POWER of the Holy Spirit, are conforming our body to be like HIM, and to react like CHRIST Himself, and it will not reach PERFECTION, until HE gives us that Glorified Body at the Resurrection.
John 3:6-7 (HCSB)
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Luke 7:50 (HCSB)
50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
Luke 18:42 (KJV)
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Romans 8:24 (HCSB)
24 Now in this hope we were saved, yet hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees?
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (HCSB)
1 Now brothers, I want to clarify for you the gospel I proclaimed to you; you received it and have taken your stand on it.
2 You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you—unless you believed for no purpose.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NCV)
10 He will use every kind of evil to trick those who are lost. They will die, because they refused to love the truth. (If they loved the truth, they would be saved.)
2 Timothy 1:9 (GW)
9 God saved us and called us to be holy, not because of what we had done, but because of his own plan and kindness. Before the world began, God planned that Christ Jesus would show us God's kindness.
John 3:36 (HCSB)
36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
John 5:24 (CSBBible)
24 "Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life. [Your born again human spirit is eternally alive, when you genuinely BELIEVE.]
Counting SALVATION is the same as SANCTIFICATION, is comparing apples to oranges. Even a blind man can tell the difference.
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You know guys I just thought about this:
Those who oppose eternal security of the believer ALWAYS resort to saying things like: "Well, if you cant lose your salvation, you can just go around on a rampage and *insert list of horrible deeds here*"
And it got me thinking, WHY is it that they always bring up something like that? Something so extreme. The world is FULL of atheists and idolaters and the VAST MAJORITY of them are not out there doing evil to THAT extreme. So why would born again Christians?
Is this a case of "something I WISH i could do, but cant cause i'd end up in hell?" Or just a way to make a point?
Those who oppose eternal security of the believer ALWAYS resort to saying things like: "Well, if you cant lose your salvation, you can just go around on a rampage and *insert list of horrible deeds here*"
And it got me thinking, WHY is it that they always bring up something like that? Something so extreme. The world is FULL of atheists and idolaters and the VAST MAJORITY of them are not out there doing evil to THAT extreme. So why would born again Christians?
Is this a case of "something I WISH i could do, but cant cause i'd end up in hell?" Or just a way to make a point?
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Matthew 25 is not a works gospel. As I explained to you before, when works are mentioned in connection with those who receive salvation, the works are the result of, fruit of, not the condition of, receiving eternal life. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof). You are confusing DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.
Just as in Romans 2:6, we read that God will render to each person according to his deeds, yet this does not mean that we merit eternal life based on the merit our deeds and if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scripture, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means of or basis of receiving salvation.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life (believers) are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life (unbelievers) are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages tell us is that even though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are "saved by works," then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
Just as in Romans 2:6, we read that God will render to each person according to his deeds, yet this does not mean that we merit eternal life based on the merit our deeds and if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scripture, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means of or basis of receiving salvation.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life (believers) are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life (unbelievers) are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages tell us is that even though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are "saved by works," then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
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Please show me where I denied works.
This is all I've been saying for months now.
And how about posting some scripture that says all we have to do is believe in Jesus and we'll be saved.
I don't remember Him ever saying this.
I do remember that He said we are to follow the moral law and that He did not come to abolish it.
Mathew 5:17
I do remember that He said that we are not to be lawless.
Mathew 7:23
I do remember that He said we are to be doers of His word.
Mathew 7:24
I do remember that He will cut off the branches that do not obey by abiding in Him.
John 15:6
Now, please post 4 verses of Jesus saying we are ONLY to believe in HIM and do NO WORKS for us to keep our salvation.
This is all I've been saying for months now.
And how about posting some scripture that says all we have to do is believe in Jesus and we'll be saved.
I don't remember Him ever saying this.
I do remember that He said we are to follow the moral law and that He did not come to abolish it.
Mathew 5:17
I do remember that He said that we are not to be lawless.
Mathew 7:23
I do remember that He said we are to be doers of His word.
Mathew 7:24
I do remember that He will cut off the branches that do not obey by abiding in Him.
John 15:6
Now, please post 4 verses of Jesus saying we are ONLY to believe in HIM and do NO WORKS for us to keep our salvation.
You write so much I just don't know how I'll ever answer.
And to something so simple as salvation.
First of all, we're not speaking about GETTING SAVED.
This is totally a work of FAITH.
What about AFTER salvation?
Call it what you want:
Works BECAUSE we're saved....
Just answer this:
AFTER WE'RE SAVED.
Is it NECESSARY to work to maintain our salvation?
OR
Could we CHOOSE not to work?
Simple yes or no will do.
Positional, descriptive, prescriptive, and all those other man-made words have no meaning in God's Kingdom.
HE used no such words.
Deeds are the fruit of our salvation,,,
but they are also the MEANS of keeping our salvation.
No good deeds....no salvation.
JESUS said this,,,not me.
John 5:28-29 JESUS SAID:
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. "
I hope everyone here knows that "judgement" means condemnation.
This is Jesus speaking...NOT ME.
And to something so simple as salvation.
First of all, we're not speaking about GETTING SAVED.
This is totally a work of FAITH.
What about AFTER salvation?
Call it what you want:
Works BECAUSE we're saved....
Just answer this:
AFTER WE'RE SAVED.
Is it NECESSARY to work to maintain our salvation?
OR
Could we CHOOSE not to work?
Simple yes or no will do.
Positional, descriptive, prescriptive, and all those other man-made words have no meaning in God's Kingdom.
HE used no such words.
Deeds are the fruit of our salvation,,,
but they are also the MEANS of keeping our salvation.
No good deeds....no salvation.
JESUS said this,,,not me.
John 5:28-29 JESUS SAID:
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. "
I hope everyone here knows that "judgement" means condemnation.
This is Jesus speaking...NOT ME.
Yes, many times Jesus said
YOU'RE FAITH HAS SAVED YOU.
But what if we lose that faith?
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returnsto wallowing in the mire.”
YOU'RE FAITH HAS SAVED YOU.
But what if we lose that faith?
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returnsto wallowing in the mire.”