Not By Works
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Where does it say they works keep us saved
Hebrews 4:3-7
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
There is still a “rest” that is available to us “today.” I would understand this to have present and future dimensions, just as salvation has. There is surely a “salvation rest,” a resting from our works in an effort to earn God’s favor, when we come to faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary. And there is the eternal rest which all Christians will experience. But there must also be what we might call a “sanctification rest,” a rest from striving as Christians in the power of the flesh, in a futile effort to attain godliness. I believe that we see this in Romans 7 and 8. Chapter 7 is the description of a Christian trying to live up to God’s standards in the power of the flesh, and failing badly. Chapter 8 is the solution. The Christian is to live in the power of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised the dead body of Jesus from the grave. By the working of His Spirit in us, we are able, to some degree, to live a godly life (see Romans 8:1-17). This is resting in Him, or we might even say, abiding in Him (see John 15:1-14). This is the key to fruitfulness. (Bible.org)
Hebrews 4:3-7
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
There is still a “rest” that is available to us “today.” I would understand this to have present and future dimensions, just as salvation has. There is surely a “salvation rest,” a resting from our works in an effort to earn God’s favor, when we come to faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary. And there is the eternal rest which all Christians will experience. But there must also be what we might call a “sanctification rest,” a rest from striving as Christians in the power of the flesh, in a futile effort to attain godliness. I believe that we see this in Romans 7 and 8. Chapter 7 is the description of a Christian trying to live up to God’s standards in the power of the flesh, and failing badly. Chapter 8 is the solution. The Christian is to live in the power of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised the dead body of Jesus from the grave. By the working of His Spirit in us, we are able, to some degree, to live a godly life (see Romans 8:1-17). This is resting in Him, or we might even say, abiding in Him (see John 15:1-14). This is the key to fruitfulness. (Bible.org)
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U
Oh. So a faith that was once alive can now be dead?
So you've decided to stop believing in OSAS?
Good girl!
So you've decided to stop believing in OSAS?
Good girl!
The faith is dead (inoperative)to the viewer, men because it cannot be seen without works.
If the spirit Is not In the body,then the body Is dead and for faith to be shown to men, It will be shown through the body.
Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.
A person can not show their faith to men without their works.
GOD looks at the heart but men look at the outward appearances.
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It's incredible how you get likes for saying NOTHING.
Your gang must really love you because you make following Christ SO SIMPLE!!
Genesis 12: 4 says Abram OBEYED.
It DOES NOT say what you just posted.
Here it is:
Genesis 12:1-4
1Now the LORD said to Abram,
“Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
2And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
3And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
4So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Please note that in verse 2 God says that He will bless Abram IF he does as God says...
[otherwise God won't be able to since Abram would hinder Him]
Your gang must really love you because you make following Christ SO SIMPLE!!
Genesis 12: 4 says Abram OBEYED.
It DOES NOT say what you just posted.
Here it is:
Genesis 12:1-4
1Now the LORD said to Abram,
“Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
2And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
3And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
4So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Please note that in verse 2 God says that He will bless Abram IF he does as God says...
[otherwise God won't be able to since Abram would hinder Him]
What do we reap?
Loss of salvation or rewards.
We can even do works that are burned up. But still be saved.
6:7, 8 The principle of sowing and reaping was known to everyone in a largely agricultural society. It is a vain attempt to “mock” God for a Christian to think that if he sows to his flesh he can escape the harvest of destruction and judgment that comes upon those who participate in sin (5:19–21; Hos. 8:7). Corruption is a term used for a field in which the produce is too rotten to harvest (see Heb. 6:8). Some interpret corruption to imply eternal destruction, either through losing salvation or through never having been truly saved at all. Others understand a tragic loss of rewards for the carnal believer (see 1 Cor. 3:12–15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12). He who sows to the Spirit will … reap everlasting life does not mean that eternal life is earned by works. Rather, Paul is saying that everlasting life is the glorious end of those who follow the guidance of the Spirit (see Rom. 6:22).
6:9 In this verse, Paul speaks of doing good. The apostle has argued at length that such works cannot justify (2:16) or sanctify (3:3) anyone. However, good works are, in fact, an important fruit of the life of faith (5:5) that God has planned for each believer (see Eph. 2:8–10). In 5:19–23, the apostle describes the attitudes and actions of those controlled by the “flesh” versus those controlled by the Spirit. In vv. 7–9, Paul shows the impact of those two contradictory ways over the length of a Christian’s life (see 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12).
Loss of salvation or rewards.
We can even do works that are burned up. But still be saved.
6:7, 8 The principle of sowing and reaping was known to everyone in a largely agricultural society. It is a vain attempt to “mock” God for a Christian to think that if he sows to his flesh he can escape the harvest of destruction and judgment that comes upon those who participate in sin (5:19–21; Hos. 8:7). Corruption is a term used for a field in which the produce is too rotten to harvest (see Heb. 6:8). Some interpret corruption to imply eternal destruction, either through losing salvation or through never having been truly saved at all. Others understand a tragic loss of rewards for the carnal believer (see 1 Cor. 3:12–15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12). He who sows to the Spirit will … reap everlasting life does not mean that eternal life is earned by works. Rather, Paul is saying that everlasting life is the glorious end of those who follow the guidance of the Spirit (see Rom. 6:22).
6:9 In this verse, Paul speaks of doing good. The apostle has argued at length that such works cannot justify (2:16) or sanctify (3:3) anyone. However, good works are, in fact, an important fruit of the life of faith (5:5) that God has planned for each believer (see Eph. 2:8–10). In 5:19–23, the apostle describes the attitudes and actions of those controlled by the “flesh” versus those controlled by the Spirit. In vv. 7–9, Paul shows the impact of those two contradictory ways over the length of a Christian’s life (see 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12).
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If Jesus taught we are to work for God,
and we DO NOT
Then this is disobedience...those to whom it was first preached DID NOT ENTER BECAUSE OF DISOBEDIENCE.
What you have written and I highlighted in green is a correct biblical teaching.
What is highlighted in purple is also true...but apparently, from reading this thread...some do not understand what it means.
The statement in grey is not right. Sanctification DOES require work on our part.
I have to leave for dinner,,,but I do want to go thru Romans with you later....
and we DO NOT
Then this is disobedience...those to whom it was first preached DID NOT ENTER BECAUSE OF DISOBEDIENCE.
What you have written and I highlighted in green is a correct biblical teaching.
What is highlighted in purple is also true...but apparently, from reading this thread...some do not understand what it means.
The statement in grey is not right. Sanctification DOES require work on our part.
I have to leave for dinner,,,but I do want to go thru Romans with you later....
Hebrews 3:18-19
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
They could not enter his because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:10-11
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
The Word Discovers Our Condition
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
What is this unbelief and what is this rest and what is this disobedience?
Who was Hebrews written to and why?
Your thoughts please.
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
They could not enter his because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:10-11
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
The Word Discovers Our Condition
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
What is this unbelief and what is this rest and what is this disobedience?
Who was Hebrews written to and why?
Your thoughts please.
I believe it follows on from what you highlighted as being correct.
The salvation rest being from resting from our works in order to earn Gods favour.
Yes sanctification does require effort on our part.
No doubt about it, but not too earn or keep Gods favour.
So we have been sanctified, which means set apart.
Made Holy and to grow in holiness. To do good works per Eph 2.
Jesus said
John 17:19
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Peter (the hot headed man, who denied Jesus, cut a guards ear off, who could only respond when Jesus asked him 3 times "Do you Agape me could only respond with I Phileo you) said
1 Peter 1:15-16
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
Hebrews 2:11
11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
1 Peter 1:2
2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.
May God give you more and more grace and peace.
So who is it that sanctified us?
Do we sanctify ourselves?
Who is it that makes us holy
Ourselves or the Holy Spirit?
So to me to say that our works keep us saved puts the ball back in our court.
If thats the case it takes the focus off what Jesus has done for us then we feel we need to add to it.
We have nothing to add to what he has done.
When we accept what he has done and allow the Holy Spirit to work in us, he will.
Not to be saved but because we are.
If a person does not believe they are saved there is only one path to walk.
That is the path of works.
Just like the Muslims do. Hope their good works outweigh their bad works. (not saying you are a Muslim)
The salvation rest being from resting from our works in order to earn Gods favour.
Yes sanctification does require effort on our part.
No doubt about it, but not too earn or keep Gods favour.
So we have been sanctified, which means set apart.
Made Holy and to grow in holiness. To do good works per Eph 2.
Jesus said
John 17:19
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Peter (the hot headed man, who denied Jesus, cut a guards ear off, who could only respond when Jesus asked him 3 times "Do you Agape me could only respond with I Phileo you) said
1 Peter 1:15-16
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
Hebrews 2:11
11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
1 Peter 1:2
2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.
May God give you more and more grace and peace.
So who is it that sanctified us?
Do we sanctify ourselves?
Who is it that makes us holy
Ourselves or the Holy Spirit?
So to me to say that our works keep us saved puts the ball back in our court.
If thats the case it takes the focus off what Jesus has done for us then we feel we need to add to it.
We have nothing to add to what he has done.
When we accept what he has done and allow the Holy Spirit to work in us, he will.
Not to be saved but because we are.
If a person does not believe they are saved there is only one path to walk.
That is the path of works.
Just like the Muslims do. Hope their good works outweigh their bad works. (not saying you are a Muslim)
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How do you know if you have enough works?
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Agreed. We are saved by faith alone.
God wants our faith.
ONLY works cannot save us.
Why not to keep our salvation?
If we are sanctified...set apart...since God said to be holy as He is holy...holy means the same...being set apart.
To grow in holiness...good so far.
And for what?
To be saved and to do God's good works as per Ephesians 2:10
Good so far.
BUT....what if we DO NOT continue in that holiness or sanctification?
What if we return to a life of sin?
Are we still saved? Are we still sanctified...set apart??
Persons right here on this thread have stated they could sin and do anything and still be saved.
Is this true? I know you don't think so, but this is what OSAS brings some to believe.
It's a very dangerous doctrine besides it not being biblical.
Up above you said sanctification does require effort on our part.
Then please tell me why.
I think we need to get away from this idea that we take the focus off God,,,that we want to be prideful of our works...that we need to add to it....that Jesus has done it all.
He has not done it all.
He did HIS part......IT IS FINISHED.
Now WE have to do our part.
Our part is to OBEY God, just like the bible says to do.
Romans 2:5-11
Who on this thread doesn't believe they are saved??
God wants our faith.
ONLY works cannot save us.
Why not to keep our salvation?
If we are sanctified...set apart...since God said to be holy as He is holy...holy means the same...being set apart.
To grow in holiness...good so far.
And for what?
To be saved and to do God's good works as per Ephesians 2:10
Good so far.
BUT....what if we DO NOT continue in that holiness or sanctification?
What if we return to a life of sin?
Are we still saved? Are we still sanctified...set apart??
Persons right here on this thread have stated they could sin and do anything and still be saved.
Is this true? I know you don't think so, but this is what OSAS brings some to believe.
It's a very dangerous doctrine besides it not being biblical.
Up above you said sanctification does require effort on our part.
Then please tell me why.
I think we need to get away from this idea that we take the focus off God,,,that we want to be prideful of our works...that we need to add to it....that Jesus has done it all.
He has not done it all.
He did HIS part......IT IS FINISHED.
Now WE have to do our part.
Our part is to OBEY God, just like the bible says to do.
Romans 2:5-11
Who on this thread doesn't believe they are saved??
We reap both...
The bible speaks of salvation and it speaks about rewards.
But why was the N.T. put together?
To get rewards? Jesus left His home in heaven to come and teach us how to get rewards?
No. Everything is geared to getting us to heaven. Salvation.
Can we come to understand that Paul, a Jew, was speaking to his brethren and trying to show them why the Pharisees were wrong? He was telling them what we know... we are not saved by works...works OF THE LAW...works that try to please God but having NO FAITH in Him, which is what the Jews were doing... They were following rituals instead of loving God with their heart.
Romans 6:22 says: [we are now enslaved to God, our benefit is sanctification and the OUTCOME is eternal life].
I agree with the rest of course. If Paul is properly understood, we are to agree with everything he said...he was taught by Jesus.
The bible speaks of salvation and it speaks about rewards.
But why was the N.T. put together?
To get rewards? Jesus left His home in heaven to come and teach us how to get rewards?
No. Everything is geared to getting us to heaven. Salvation.
Can we come to understand that Paul, a Jew, was speaking to his brethren and trying to show them why the Pharisees were wrong? He was telling them what we know... we are not saved by works...works OF THE LAW...works that try to please God but having NO FAITH in Him, which is what the Jews were doing... They were following rituals instead of loving God with their heart.
Romans 6:22 says: [we are now enslaved to God, our benefit is sanctification and the OUTCOME is eternal life].
I agree with the rest of course. If Paul is properly understood, we are to agree with everything he said...he was taught by Jesus.