Not By Works

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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So God does not have a massive bottle of Tipex?
HAHAHAH had to look that one up.......No, I don't believe he does.........we look at time in a linear way....to God day one of creation to the last day is as but yesterday.......it was all done before the casting down of the world and I have always viewed the book of the living from the standpoint that everything is recorded....from the hairs of one's head to the number of sparrows that will fill the sky.....it speaks of God's treasuries of snow, lightning and even hail.....It was all done and finished before the casting down of the world....God is just waiting for time (or so to speak) to play out......in his eyes it is already all done.......
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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I come from the meanstreets as ive said many times on here. This is relevant because I saw someone in this thread mention the word probation or probationary or something like that, i dont know why i cant find it now that i need to quote it, but nonetheless, here is a story:

I thought "wow, salvation is like a probation to some people, you mess up and you're back in". Before I decided to post this I looked it up and turns out there actually are a TON OF people who in a non-joking way speak of salvation as a probation period! I found a guy on youtube called Kerrigan skelly who called it just that!

Now apply this to real life: is your SENTENCE completed if you are out on parole for example? NO its not.
Are you in possession of eternal life, if you can lose it? NO, not really.

ANYONE who has been locked up knows what its like to be on parole, you are afraid to LIVE, in case you drive over the speed limit, they are OUT TO GET YA.
I know the quote you are referencing and like they say....Salvation is not a probationary issue.....it is not something we just try out for a while....it carries eternal consequence and also has present continuing result from a past completed action.....eternal life, everlasting life are exactly that....eternal/everlasting......not temporal or temporary.....!!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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HAHAHAH had to look that one up.......No, I don't believe he does.........we look at time in a linear way....to God day one of creation to the last day is as but yesterday.......it was all done before the casting down of the world and I have always viewed the book of the living from the standpoint that everything is recorded....from the hairs of one's head to the number of sparrows that will fill the sky.....it speaks of God's treasuries of snow, lightning and even hail.....It was all done and finished before the casting down of the world....God is just waiting for time (or so to speak) to play out......in his eyes it is already all done.......
Of course he doesn't.

If he needed a bottle of Tipex then basically he has to blot out a mistake.
If that's the case then he has made a mistake.
Does he make mistakes?
Does he invite us to dance the Hokey Coky dance?

He certainly does not.

Imagine the conversation in heaven.

Jesus to God

Hey Bill has just placed his faith in me

God to Jesus

Great let's have a party and I'm just going to write his name in the book of life.

Jesus to God

Oh dear, he has not done enough good works, not been obedient enough this week.

God to Jesus

Where is the Tipex? Thanks son now he is blotted out.

Jesus to God.

Bill has done well this week, lots of works.

God to Jesus.

That's good now can you pass me a pen. I will write him back in the book again.

So we can repeat the cycle again and again.

Romans 10:9-13
9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Hebrews 7:24-26
24 But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever. 25 Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.
26 He is the kind of high priest we need because he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin. He has been set apart from sinners and has been given the highest place of honor in heaven.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,123
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it speaks of God's treasuries of snow, lightning and even hail.....I
Job 38:22-23
22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?

One of my favourite verses.

That's cause I love snow.
Pure white.

And if memory serves me from my reading Job would have no idea what snow was.

Also because God starts to question Job.
And Job comes to realise that he knows nothing of God.
The depth of God.
Yet God allows him to question him and respond.

Job 38:3
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

The concourse from Job 38-42.

I would encourage all to read those 4 chapters.
It reveals the magnificence of God, it reveals our inept understanding of God and it reveals the love of God in his restoration to him despite all of that.

It does my soul good.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Someone that is saved can turn their back on God rather than continue walking with Him and being obedient to His Word. Obeying our Savior is the least we can do.
true, but if you obey and someone walks away, By law you are still just as guilty as he is. If you think you being obedient will save you, while him become a prodigal will cause him to lose salvation. You do not understand Grace.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,123
2,989
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Someone that is saved can turn their back on God rather than continue walking with Him and being obedient to His Word. Obeying our Savior is the least we can do.
We all do it.
Even belivers turn their back on God.
Have you never done that?
Ever been disobedient to his word?

Would be interested to know your thoughts on "Disobedient to his word?

What is the word that we are disobedient to?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,343
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Job 38:22-23
22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?

One of my favourite verses.

That's cause I love snow.
Pure white.

And if memory serves me from my reading Job would have no idea what snow was.

Also because God starts to question Job.
And Job comes to realise that he knows nothing of God.
The depth of God.
Yet God allows him to question him and respond.

Job 38:3
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

The concourse from Job 38-42.

I would encourage all to read those 4 chapters.
It reveals the magnificence of God, it reveals our inept understanding of God and it reveals the love of God in his restoration to him despite all of that.

It does my soul good.
Amen......it is all good HAHAH
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,115
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Hey!

I have a problem with the book of James.

I can't find anywhere in the book where he mentions the power of Holy Spirit working in the life of believers.

It says in the beginning of the book that he is writing to Jewish Christians who have been dispersed after the temple is torn down. So he is giving them comfort during their time of struggles of persecution, and how one should be while being persecuted.

But, nothing about Holy Spirit. Or praying in the Spirit.

Why?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,243
2,401
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Hey!

I have a problem with the book of James.

I can't find anywhere in the book where he mentions the power of Holy Spirit working in the life of believers.

It says in the beginning of the book that he is writing to Jewish Christians who have been dispersed after the temple is torn down. So he is giving them comfort during their time of struggles of persecution, and how one should be while being persecuted.

But, nothing about Holy Spirit. Or praying in the Spirit.

Why?
Why should it contain that?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,115
1,546
113
I'm not meaning to be divisive, but this book has never sat well with me. I didn't know why until I thought today to search the words Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost in this book.

If you all can find a verse, would appreciate the posting of it.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,343
15,101
113
Hey!

I have a problem with the book of James.

I can't find anywhere in the book where he mentions the power of Holy Spirit working in the life of believers.

It says in the beginning of the book that he is writing to Jewish Christians who have been dispersed after the temple is torn down. So he is giving them comfort during their time of struggles of persecution, and how one should be while being persecuted.

But, nothing about Holy Spirit. Or praying in the Spirit.

Why?
Because each book is specifically aimed at particular groups for particular reasons.........one reason why many take this book out of context to come to conclusions that are not supported by the text....

Jewish believers scattered abroad with the same problem Jews have to this day....a belief in God with no saving faith and or a lack of evidentiary "works' identified with saving faith......the context being a claim of faith being seen by men........not that works justify a man before God.......
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,145
10,538
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Hey!

I have a problem with the book of James.

I can't find anywhere in the book where he mentions the power of Holy Spirit working in the life of believers.

It says in the beginning of the book that he is writing to Jewish Christians who have been dispersed after the temple is torn down. So he is giving them comfort during their time of struggles of persecution, and how one should be while being persecuted.

But, nothing about Holy Spirit. Or praying in the Spirit.

Why?
Many people believe james was one of first books written,

Isreal had been dispersed since babylon,

I am not sure why he does not mention HS. Good question
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,343
15,101
113
Many people believe james was one of first books written,

Isreal had been dispersed since babylon,

I am not sure why he does not mention HS. Good question
It is an interesting concept.....technically the Jews were not scattered until after Titus razed Jerusalem.....so....now we have a conundrum.....which Jews and which scattering...........Historically speaking many place the writing of James before he was martyred in A.D. 62.....and if the case he could not have been addressing the Jews scattered by the Roman legions in 70 A.D. under Titus......The earliest manuscripts of James date to the mid-to-late 3rd century......

Now we really have a puzzle......something I never really pondered before......interesting.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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One could understand Jesus comment to indicate that there is a possibility that a name could be blotted out.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
KJV
Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning. Some people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who stumbles/sins/messes up. They read into it like this: "If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!" The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. "He that "overcometh" is descriptive of believers.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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It is an interesting concept.....technically the Jews were not scattered until after Titus razed Jerusalem.....so....now we have a conundrum.....which Jews and which scattering...........Historically speaking many place the writing of James before he was martyred in A.D. 62.....and if the case he could not have been addressing the Jews scattered by the Roman legions in 70 A.D. under Titus......The earliest manuscripts of James date to the mid-to-late 3rd century......

Now we really have a puzzle......something I never really pondered before......interesting.
After babylon, they were not completely restored, many jews remained scattered, thats why they all spoke different languages on the day of pentecost. When they said they all heard the discples speak in their native tongue
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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My view on the book of the living....everyone is written in and only removed and or rather not written in when they deny Christ <---I.E. Not the type of denial like Peter, but rather no saving faith.....the KEY to the quote you reference<---I will not confess his name before My Father and before his angels....

*He that confesses me before men will I confess before my Father <---saving faith-->with the mind man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Amen! In context, Matthew 10:32-33 relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him everywhere they went. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Jesus Christ (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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You are trying to undue a persons eternal salvation, you cannot undue what God has already purposed for each saved individual. True believers are "sealed" for the day of redemption. God has a unique plan for each true born again Christian.

1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (y)
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,343
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After babylon, they were not completely restored, many jews remained scattered, thats why they all spoke different languages on the day of pentecost. When they said they all heard the discples speak in their native tongue
Yeah, I am aware of that....I have heard men stand and say that this book was written unto the Jews scattered by Titus in 70 and that is an impossibility if the book was written by the half brother of Jesus which was martyred in 62.........and this raises all sorts of questions like the one raised by Stones........
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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What does "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" mean in Philippians 2:12 if not what it says?
*Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and not "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith.

Even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by those who teach salvation by works:

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)