Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Forget the like.
Keep studying....
Circumcision was the sign of a covenant....
In the new covenant our heart is circumcised.
Theres much more....
If the roots of our sin nature are destroyed (axe laid to the tree) and we are the circumcised in heart....new nature; then all that is left is our mind being renewed to truth. The job of Holy Spirit which we can see in Rosemarys life quite easily.
We all are at different places of mind renewal. None is more saved though than another.

must go
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
If the roots of our sin nature are destroyed (axe laid to the tree) and we are the circumcised in heart....new nature; then all that is left is our mind being renewed to truth. The job of Holy Spirit which we can see in Rosemarys life quite easily.
We all are at different places of mind renewal. None is more saved though than another.

must go
If our sin nature is destroyed,,,why do we sin?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,394
6,734
113
2 questions...

Why did Jesus banish them? He says why.

Did Jesus and Paul teach the same doctrine?

I'm not going to pursue this,,,just curious.
why don't you just tell us what you think.

I mean, many of us understand this asking, asking , asking is an argument tactic, so you can spin every answer into your theology.

if you just say what you think, then some may ask YOU some questions, which would put you on the defensive, and then you can't control the direction of the conversation, which is the only way your theology works.

not to speak for decon, but the " they " he refers to could be the ones who have no interest in having a actual back and fourth , but insisting on having controlled conversations that they can push their beliefs.
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
151
46
28
Justification

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."[Romans 3:28;Galatians 2:16]

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only."[James 2:24;I John 3:7]

"He shall see the travail of his soul,and shall be satisfied:by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many,for he shall bear their iniquities." [Isaiah 53:11]

"Let the wicked forsake his way,and the unrighteous man his thoughts:And let him return unto the Lord,and he will have mercy upon him;and to our God for he will abundantly pardon."[Isaiah 55:7]


The statements above made by the apostles Paul and James appear to contradict each other and may be a cause of confusion among those who seek to understand the word of God.Many persons may be tempted to accept one and reject the other.

A proper search of the scriptures,however, will show that both can be reconciled and the words of Isaiah stated above,also sheds some light on this.Many,instead of reconciling both passages tend to accept one and teach that we are saved by grace and are made righteous by Jesus' atoning action and hence those who try to live righteous or keep God's commandments, are trying to be righteous by themselves and hence,are fallen from grace.(especially those who use the law as a guide to know sin.)


Nothing could be further from the truth and the passages in Isaiah, stated above, show that those who are to benefit from God's pardon(grace) must also forsake their wicked ways and unrighteous thoughts and conform to God's ways.

The difference in the style of writing of both apostles and the difference in the audience they are writing to,may be a cause of the apparent contradiction. If,however, the reader should consider all of Paul's letter to the Romans and his other epistles, before coming to a conclusion,they would be able to see that both he and James concur on the matter but that they discuss the topic in different ways.

It is to be noted that the apostle Peter noticed that Paul's style of writing is not easily understood and could cause many to be in error.Many pastors and teachers of God's word fail to recognize this and hence,lead their flock into error and keep them there by avoiding scriptures which would illuminate their errors.[II Peter 3:15-17;II Timothy 2:15;Proverbs 14:15;Proverbs 2:1-6]

Paul says justification is by faith and faith alone.[Romans 3:23-28;Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9] But he also asks,if, after receiving this pardon,should we continue in sin.[Romans 6:1,2] He says no and hence shows there is another part to justification which James speaks of in his statement above and which Paul alludes to in other passages.[Romans 2:13]

The part which man has no control of and can do nothing to gain may be called redemption or reconciliation( Romans 3:24;Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14;Hebrews 9:12,15;Romans 5:10;II Corinthians 5:18-20) and the second area is that which man will do by the power which God has given him, by his submitting to the will of God and living a righteous and holy life.Hence whereas Paul is making clear to the readers at Rome that the reason we have the opportunity to gain eternal life is not by our own doing,he also says, when we have accepted this opportunity by accepting baptism,we are not expected to continue to live in sin,but we must live in a manner which is acceptable to God who gives us the power to do this.

James in his letter may have been speaking to a more informed audience and hence ,he links both parts of the justification process,without highlighting the act performed by Jesus which motivates and gives the faith needed to continue in good works.


The following scriptures show the way in which the justification process may be divided.


REDEMPTION AFTER REDEMPTION

Romans 3:23-26. Romans 6:20-22.

Romans 5:9. Romans 6:1-4,6,15.

Ephesians 2:8,9. Ephesians 2:10;4:22-24.

Titus 3:7. Titus 3:8.

Hebrews 9:11-15. Hebrews 10:22-29.

Galatians 2:16. Galatians 5:6,16,19-23.


redemption - (629,Strong' s)apolutrosis, from a comp. of 575 and 3083;(the act)ransom in full.ie.(fig. ) riddance,or (spec.)Chr. salvation:

Also: (3085,Strong' s)lutrosis, from 3084;a ransoming(fig. ):

James however,speaks of the whole process as one and is very simple in his explanation of what should happen to the redeemed person.[James 2:1,14-26;1: 1-3,12] He does not describe the actions of Jesus in the justification process in the detail that Paul does but is mainly concerned with the fruits of the process.Persons reading parts of Paul's letter may believe that just by having faith they are righteous and may gain eternal life, without forsaking sin also.James' method of describing the process ensures that no one could make this error with his letter and there are many other scriptures which support this method.Whereas James makes his point quickly,Paul only gets to the "meat" of the matter in chapter 12 of his letter to the Romans.[Romans 3:5-8;II Peter 3:15-17;Romans 12:1-21;13:8- 10,14;Hebrews 11:1-40;Galatians 5:6;I Corinthians 7:19;I John 5:2,3]

Jesus also was very clear on the subject as was the apostle John.[Matthew 7:21-27;19:16- 30;John 6:35-40;7:16; 8:31 - 45;11:25,26; 12:47-50; I John 1:5-10;2:1-6; 3:1-10;Revelation 14:12]

In using Abraham as the example for all to follow,the dual nature of the justification process is obvious.

Abraham was called by God to leave his father's house and he obeyed.[Genesis 12:1-4;Hebrews 11:8]
His faith caused him to obey God.[James 2:21-23]
He was declared righteous as God cleared him of any sin he had committed because he believed God.[Romans 4:1-8;Genesis 15:6]

When this relationship was sealed Abraham was told to:

"...walk before me and be thou perfect."[Genesis 17:1]

Hence God called him,redeemed him and told him to obey his laws,and he received the institution of circumcision as a seal of this agreement or covenant.[Genesis 17:3-14; James 2:14-20;Ephesians 2:8-10;Titus 3:4-8]

Did Abraham keep the laws of God after being redeemed,justified or cleared of sin?

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,and kept my charge,my commandments, my statutes,and my laws."[Genesis 26:5]

Jesus said the children of Abraham would follow his example.[John 8:39;Galatians 3:28,29]

Hence Abraham's faith was first acknowledged but continued to be tested and was proven because he obeyed God.[Genesis 22:1-14;Hebrews 11:8-10,17]

As it was with Abraham and others, it is our works which will show our faith or lack of it.[Romans 4:19-22;9:30- 33;11:20- 22;Hebrews 3:14-19;4:1- 16;Numbers 14:1-35;James 2:22,23;1:2- 4,12;Proverbs 28:13;21:21]

In conclusion,we cannot free ourselves from the curse of the law.Only the death of one who was just could do this great work of reconciliation with God.[Deuteronomy 11:26-29;27: 11-26;28: 15-19;Galatians 3:13;Hebrews 9:15;10:1-10; I Peter 1:18-21;2:24, 25;Romans 3:22,23.]

For neither the blood of bulls and goats(works of the law) nor our good works(works of righteousness) could redeem us from the consequences of sin.[Romans 3:20;Romans 6:23;Ezekiel 20:24,25;Romans 9:31,32;Titus 3:5;Hebrews 10:1-14;Galatians 2:16;3:19,24- 26]

After being redeemed,however, in order to attain the promise of eternal life,which was made possible by the death of Jesus,we must forsake sin and live according to God's laws.[I Peter 1:9-23;Romans 6:1-14;I Corinthians 6:9-11;Titus 3:8;Romans 8:1-8,13;Ezekiel 36:26,27;I Peter 4:1-4;Romans 7;7;3:20b;I John 3:4;I Timothy 1:8;Jeremiah 31:33,34;Exodus 24:12;Hebrews 8:8-13; II Corinthians 3:1-3;Revelation 22:14]

This is how the law/works justifies. As Paul said:

Romans 2:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

If we continue in sin after accepting this gift of grace,we are in danger of facing the wrath of God,however, we still have an advocate who intercedes on our behalf if we have strayed from the path of righteousness. [Hebrews 7:22-25;10:26- 29,38,39; 12:1-17;I John 2:1,2;Psalm 32:1-5,8,10]

Those who fail to do those works pleasing unto God are said to be:

"They profess that they know God;but in works they deny him,being abominable,and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."[ Titus 1:16]

We should rather be found among those described below:

"Little children,let no man deceive you:he that doeth righteousness, is righteous even as he is righteous."[ I John 3:7]

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,we should live soberly,righteously ,and godly,in this present world.....who gave himself for us,that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works."[Titus 2:11-14]


safswan.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
2 questions...

Why did Jesus banish them? He says why.

Did Jesus and Paul teach the same doctrine?

I'm not going to pursue this,,,just curious.
a. Because they were lost and had trusted into a false way <----faith plus works for = lost and workers of iniquity
b. Yes they both taught the same thing....Believe in Christ = saved eternally because sins are FORGIVEN and FORGOTTEN
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
For the newspaper reporter above.....there is no contradiction between JAMES and PAUL when context is taken into account and they DO NOT TEACH THE SAME THING as they COVER DIFFERENT contexts.....BOILED DOWN........

Paul Justified before God by faith NO works attached
James Above faith seen by men based upon works

NEITHER teach that works justifies a man before GOD......end of story.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
why don't you just tell us what you think.

I mean, many of us understand this asking, asking , asking is an argument tactic, so you can spin every answer into your theology.

if you just say what you think, then some may ask YOU some questions, which would put you on the defensive, and then you can't control the direction of the conversation, which is the only way your theology works.

not to speak for decon, but the " they " he refers to could be the ones who have no interest in having a actual back and fourth , but insisting on having controlled conversations that they can push their beliefs.
We already know what the twist will be......
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
If our sin nature is destroyed,,,why do we sin?
I just said why. An unrenewed mind.


Rom 8:9  You, however, are not under the control of the human nature but under the control of the Spirit, since God's Spirit lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of the Messiah, he does not belong to him.


Rom 8:10  But if the Messiah is in you, your bodies are dead due to sin, but the spirit is alive due to righteousness.

A renewed mind will be first....do you believe this? Then the power...
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I just said why. An unrenewed mind.


Rom 8:9  You, however, are not under the control of the human nature but under the control of the Spirit, since God's Spirit lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of the Messiah, he does not belong to him.


Rom 8:10  But if the Messiah is in you, your bodies are dead due to sin, but the spirit is alive due to righteousness.

A renewed mind will be first....do you believe this? Then the power...
If our mind in not being renewed,,,,what's keeping it from being renewed?
That would be the sin nature.
It's still there,,,,but with the help of the Holy Spirit we're able to keep it subdued ant it no longer controls us.

Sorry no Bible,,,no scripture.

Romans 8:9 is good...
It says we are not under the CONTROL of human nature..it doesn't say it's been abolished.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Wrong word....no one who loves with Godly love, loves another from compunction or requirement

You say required because you have a false view of salvation based on works

Go see if you can find a Hebrew word for "obey" in the Old Testament the way you use......it does not exist
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You misunderstand the point James is making because you fail to see the method he is using to argue his point.The example of Abraham he gave proves hevwas not speaking of a mere profession of faith.Unless you are also claiming Abraham was a mere professor.Even if you did not see the method James was using to argue his point when he says;

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"(James 2:14)

Then the example of Abraham should have alleviated that misunderstanding.Read it again:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."(James 2:21-24)

Are you saying Abraham was only a professor?Do you understand what is meant by:

"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness", ?

I still prefer the plain words of James than your opinion.I hope you would too.
His question was clear, what does if profit a man if he claimed to have faith

He did not say the person ever had faith.


Me, i will take james and paul in agreement, not in contradiction, you do what you wish,
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
And if he had failed to offer his son and continued to fail when tried subsequently then what would his status/condition be?
He was saved in chapter 15, god knew he would do it, because he inew his faith was real.

God is omniscient, i inow thats hard for uou to understand, but its truel
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
He was saved in chapter 15, god knew he would do it, because he inew his faith was real.

God is omniscient, i inow thats hard for uou to understand, but its truel
Why are you so condescending?
Love God
Love your neighbor

Hear this...
I know it's hard for you to understand......(did you like that?)

But Abram was saved in Genesis 12:1
God spoke to him.....
And he obeyed.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
If our mind in not being renewed,,,,what's keeping it from being renewed?
That would be the sin nature.
It's still there,,,,but with the help of the Holy Spirit we're able to keep it subdued ant it no longer controls us.

Sorry no Bible,,,no scripture.

Romans 8:9 is good...
It says we are not under the CONTROL of human nature..it doesn't say it's been abolished.
The word is "in". A fixed position.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Not in the flesh but in the Spirit. A fixed postion so of course we aren't under the control. But, belief is powerful. That's why our mind needs renewed. And we need godly Spirit filled-led teachers.
I want to add here. We go from glory to glory. Increasing light of God or revelation of Him and the great salvation He has given to men. From babes to the ancient elders....faith is the same and the reward is the same.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Justification
In using Abraham as the example for all to follow, "the dual nature of the justification process" is obvious.
safswan.
Hi safswan, the "dual nature of the justification process" ?, when the gavel falls you are pronounce either innocent or guilty, and the title of your post is, "Justification"

The only thing that is obvious is your misunderstanding of "salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ." It is an alarming thing to trifle with the bible and red flags should be seen by everyone.