Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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Hi decon, yep sure is par for the course and here is an example of what happens to those who work to maintain their "losable salvation", after their failed works roll back home, a sad day for sure.

MAN that is such a true representation of those who think in their minds the help JESUS finish off their salvation.......
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
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Five Guys is calling my name.......is there a scripture for that:LOL:

View attachment 193813

Gotta go........

Close?

41 And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all.
42 And they did all eat, and were filled.
43 And they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments, and of the fishes.
44 And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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Would I agree?

I would have to say yes and no.

If we focus on our own qualities then we will always fall short of the quality of Jesus and what he has done for us.
How does one measure success when realting to a person?
(the original question)
I would say you are correct if, "we focus on our own qualities"

So the only way to know for sure I suppose would be to ask our wife to be honest enough to measure our true success when relating to a person which was the original question. Good idea bad idea? :)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,730
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Quote Chester: "I do not agree that there are two kinds or levels of Christians."

I never said there are "two levels of Christians"...

Chester I'm done with you so go find someone to argue with cause it aint gnna be me,

Good bye Chester

Not only do I not agree with two kinds of Christians, I don't agree with there being two Flocks after the RAPTURE. I believe that Old Testament Saints and New Testament Saints, WILL BE ONE ASSEMBLY after the Rapture.

You do know that CHURCH is not the word that JESUS USED, don't You?

JESUS USED ASSEMBLY when ever HE referred to the CHURCH. AND SO DID the authors of the NEW TESTAMENT. Church was substituted for ASSEMBLY only because CHURCH was what they started calling themselves. PROBABLY because they did not want to be called the SAME THING as HE CALLED the Old Testament Saints.

John 10:16 (HCSB)
16 But I have other sheep [what we call the church, correctly New Testament ASSEMBLY] that are not of this fold [HE is talking to the last of the Old Testament ASSEMBLY]; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Let me prove that to you:

Matthew 16:18 (ESV)
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church [ Not what Jesus said.], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Greek NASB Number: 1577

Greek Word: ἐκκλησία

Transliterated Word: ekklêsia
Root: from 1537 and 2564;

Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used
assembly (3),
church (74),
churches (35),
congregation (2).

New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

That makes the ONLY Translation that I can find, the Young's Literal Translation that correctly interpreted that word:

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

I THINK THAT IS A STRONG INDICATION THAT BOTH ASSEMBLIES WILL BECOME ONE AT THE RAPTURE, and those Old Testament Saints, are those WHO BELIEVED GOD THAT MESSIAH WOULD COME. No, there Works did not save them in the O.T. They are Saved the SAME WAY WE ARE.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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Not only do I not agree with two kinds of Christians, I don't agree with there being two Flocks after the RAPTURE. I believe that Old Testament Saints and New Testament Saints, WILL BE ONE ASSEMBLY after the Rapture.

You do know that CHURCH is not the word that JESUS USED, don't You?

JESUS USED ASSEMBLY when ever HE referred to the CHURCH. AND SO DID the authors of the NEW TESTAMENT. Church was substituted for ASSEMBLY only because CHURCH was what they started calling themselves. PROBABLY because they did not want to be called the SAME THING as HE CALLED the Old Testament Saints.

John 10:16 (HCSB)
16 But I have other sheep [what we call the church, correctly New Testament ASSEMBLY] that are not of this fold [HE is talking to the last of the Old Testament ASSEMBLY]; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Let me prove that to you:

Matthew 16:18 (ESV)
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church [ Not what Jesus said.], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.




That makes the ONLY Translation that I can find, the Young's Literal Translation that correctly interpreted that word:

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

I THINK THAT IS A STRONG INDICATION THAT BOTH ASSEMBLIES WILL BECOME ONE AT THE RAPTURE, and those Old Testament Saints, are those WHO BELIEVED GOD THAT MESSIAH WOULD COME. No, there Works did not save them in the O.T. They are Saved the SAME WAY WE ARE.
Hi VCO, there was a misunderstanding between Chester and myself - "neither Chester nor myself", believe that there are 2 kinds of Christians. The "entire post" was a misunderstanding and has since been resolved but I do appreciate your concern and helpfulness, God bless!
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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I have not found one instance of Paul using the term µετάνοια / µετανοεῖν (“repentance” / “repent”) in his letter to the Ephesians, can you tell me where that is?

We are saved here on earth in real time by the way....so no, not running ahead of myself.

We are born again in Jesus here on earth in real time.
Jesus said these things in His revelations to John at Patmos to the Church in Sardis not Ephesus, sorry for that and thanks for asking which called my attention.

"Saved and born again in real time here on earth."?

I have a question, have you died in your sinful nature and raised up with Christ unto incorruption and immortality?

...And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.”
John 6:39-40

...How foolish! What you sow does not come to life UNLESS IT DIES. When you sow, YOU DO NOT PLANT THE BODY THAT WILL BE, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 1 Corinthians 15:36-37

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. FOR THE PERISHABLE MUST CLOTHE ITSELF WITH THE IMPERISHABLE, AND THE MORTAL WITH IMMORTALITY. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! HE GIVES US THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. Therefore, my dear brothers, STAND FIRM. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because YOU KNOW THAT YOUR LABOR IN THE LORD IS NOT IN VAIN. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
Bro....it is not umbiblical to JUDGE ALL things by the word of God....up to and including one's dogma, what they belief, what religion they espouse and or what they say in here......when one devalues the blood of Christ, the works of Christ, the promises of Christ, the power of Christ, denies verb tense, the very verbiage of the bible, context and then say that they MUST help JESUS get them across the finish LINE I will, without remorse, and or without regret believe and say that they are false and not of GOD.......
Yesterday I heard: You need to let this go
I understood, not to get involved in Quarrels. Not only does it not help, it ads fuel to the fire. God doesn't need our help, we need His help to put away our divided spirit, to come to Him alone. Christians were deceived to fight one another in world wars and now deceived by a divided spirit to fight one another in the war kingdom against kingdom. The Holy Spirit will not be divided, confident that we are of God we Love our enemies, the people you fight against are members of the Body of Christ, "The saviour of all men, especially of them that believe." "For this cause many are weak and sick and asleep, not discerning the body of Christ." I had written some humor about the Foolish and wise virgins yesterday, then regretted it. "They all slumbered and slept." Even though its prophesied, I'm ashamed to have made fun of it and am sorry. May the conviction of the Holy Ghost awaken us to "The simplicity of Christ." A divided spirit is ruled by ego needing control out of insecurity, "Only by pride comes contention." God's order is "Whoever is great among you let him serve." "You think you already have everything you need. You think you are already rich. You have begun to reign in God's kingdom without us! I wish you really were reigning already, for then we would be reigning with you." This was also the condition of the religious leaders when Jesus came. He could not stop this as Love does not insist on its own way. "Think not that I came to bring peace on earth, I did not come to bring peace on earth but a sword" This is also the condition of the last Church in Revelation 3:15 We are unable to go on to perfection in this condition and Jesus is knocking at the door.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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Yesterday I heard: You need to let this go
I understood, not to get involved in Quarrels. Not only does it not help, it ads fuel to the fire. God doesn't need our help, we need His help to put away our divided spirit, to come to Him alone. Christians were deceived to fight one another in world wars and now deceived by a divided spirit to fight one another in the war kingdom against kingdom. The Holy Spirit will not be divided, confident that we are of God we Love our enemies, the people you fight against are members of the Body of Christ, "The saviour of all men, especially of them that believe." "For this cause many are weak and sick and asleep, not discerning the body of Christ." I had written some humor about the Foolish and wise virgins yesterday, then regretted it. "They all slumbered and slept." Even though its prophesied, I'm ashamed to have made fun of it and am sorry. May the conviction of the Holy Ghost awaken us to "The simplicity of Christ." A divided spirit is ruled by ego needing control out of insecurity, "Only by pride comes contention." God's order is "Whoever is great among you let him serve." "You think you already have everything you need. You think you are already rich. You have begun to reign in God's kingdom without us! I wish you really were reigning already, for then we would be reigning with you." This was also the condition of the religious leaders when Jesus came. He could not stop this as Love does not insist on its own way. "Think not that I came to bring peace on earth, I did not come to bring peace on earth but a sword" This is also the condition of the last Church in Revelation 3:15 We are unable to go on to perfection in this condition and Jesus is knocking at the door.
If we do not stand up for what is right, true and correct we by default stand with evil......and I do not buy that the 7 churches in Revelation = ages and or time periods......we can find ALL 7 churches on the planet and they accurately represent the types of churches that will be on the planet until Christ returns.....
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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By losing faith..however that could happen.
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returnsto wallowing in the mire.”




By not obeying Jesus, as He commanded.
John 14:21 Jesus Said:
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
So in your view, you believe in

True saving faith = salvation + works after you are saved.

But you don't want to say Salvation = Faith + Works, because that would contradict what Paul is saying.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
To those of you who feel the need to warn those who would be misled here, to think they can do anything they want and still be saved. "All things are lawful for me but I will not be borough under the power of any." The lord told me years ago in plain English: You can do anything you want but your going to fall. I understood that if we live without self control we will fall, and self control is a fruit of the Spirit from remaining in Him. Another time when I took pride in hearing the Lord, He said: Your going to fall that you may learn to continually repent. We are in Gods hands and He will not permit the proud to go on to perfection. We also see dimly and need to walk in the Light we have to get more Light. And wen we are told that if you walk it the light you have to get more light, accused of being saved by works:
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,355
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To those of you who feel the need to warn those who would be misled here, to think they can do anything they want and still be saved. "All things are lawful for me but I will not be borough under the power of any." The lord told me years ago in plain English: You can do anything you want but your going to fall. I understood that if we live without self control we will fall, and self control is a fruit of the Spirit from remaining in Him. Another time when I took pride in hearing the Lord, He said: Your going to fall that you may learn to continually repent. We are in Gods hands and He will not permit the proud to go on to perfection. We also see dimly and need to walk in the Light we have to get more Light. And wen we are told that if you walk it the light you have to get more light, accused of being saved by works:
The only people that I address according to the bolded in your post are the ones that states openly that salvation can be lost and must be earned, kept, maintained or topped off by works or some law keeping, commandment keeping drivel............and there is more than a handful on this site that believe and teach that......
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
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Walk trough the valley
We need to see divisions are from the mind of the flesh desiring control: the fruit of jalousie and quarreling is the evidence. Don't be drawn in to the disputation you don't need to defend yourself, God in my defence.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
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It is the Father's work to draw:

John 6:37, 44
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "
Aren't they One?
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
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Walk trough the valley
The Reason you cant lose your salvation is because there is no such thing as your salvation. "Salvation to our God" Those in Christ partake of His salvation. "Let no one take your crown." I need to let this go
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,730
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The Reason you cant lose your salvation is because there is no such thing as your salvation. "Salvation to our God" Those in Christ partake of His salvation. "Let no one take your crown." I need to let this go
The Reason you cant lose your salvation is because there is no such thing as your salvation. "Salvation to our God" Those in Christ partake of His salvation. "Let no one take your crown." I need to let this go

I can see your reasoning, but that is NOT WHY.

John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice,
I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all.
No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


1 Peter 1:5 (HCSB)
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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To those of you who feel the need to warn those who would be misled here, to think they can do anything they want and still be saved. "All things are lawful for me but I will not be borough under the power of any." The lord told me years ago in plain English: You can do anything you want but your going to fall. I understood that if we live without self control we will fall, and self control is a fruit of the Spirit from remaining in Him. Another time when I took pride in hearing the Lord, He said: Your going to fall that you may learn to continually repent. We are in Gods hands and He will not permit the proud to go on to perfection. We also see dimly and need to walk in the Light we have to get more Light. And wen we are told that if you walk it the light you have to get more light, accused of being saved by works:
I am one of those S,
It's the only reason I'm here.
I see that some read along but do not even post.
I've received likes from posters I don't even know...
and some PM's from the same -- readers that do not post.

Maybe they need to be reassured.
Maybe some are new Christians that are not hearing the correct message Jesus left us.
IF it's pride, I ask God to forgive me. Yes, I'm also of those that believe we must ask forgiveness.

But what is sin to one may not be to another.
Although I believe your voice is needed, if God told you not to join in this discussion, He is to be obeyed, as usual.

Whatever you believe regarding any biblical topic, I do respect you because of your attitude and love for your bothers in Christ.
Many times I've posted John 13:35

Blessings.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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So in your view, you believe in

True saving faith = salvation + works after you are saved.

But you don't want to say Salvation = Faith + Works, because that would contradict what Paul is saying.
Paul does not teach faith alone.
Paul teaches salvation = Faith plus works.

The question becomes WHICH works?
Paul was preaching to persons (the Jews) that believed all their life that their works....the keeping of the 613 laws would save their soul. They toiled to work for their salvation.

Paul taught two mysteries...
The major mystery was that salvation was for all nations. Genesis 22:18
The second was that we are saved by faith and not by works. This is justification.

Abraham had faith already in Genesis 12:1
Why?
Because he obeyed God. We can only obey God when we have faith in Him,,,and this is the faith that can save us...believing (obeying) Him is what you call true saving faith. God told Abraham to go,,,and he went. He was saved at this point, Genesis 12:1 -- no need to wait till Genesis 15:6

He wanted his brethren to understand that we are saved by faith....just as in the O.T. and which message had become lost to them, and to which the Law had become burdensome. Jesus wanted them to understand that we change from the inside out...not by ritual.

Paul preached this same faith to the Gentiles.
Every one of his letters has works in it.
Didn't Paul himself work?
Isn't preaching the gospel a work?
Isn't being a missionary a work?
When we work from our faith, we are doing God's work.
Ephesians 2:10

Romans 1:5-9
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,
6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.
9For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,



Paul states above that we have received Apostleship, which is Discipleship. A disciples follows his leader and teacher and master and does what is required of him. Sometimes we do out of love for him, as is proclaimed here on this thread....and sometimes we do because that is what is required of us.
Galatians 6:9
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

If Paul says we might grow weary, it means that possibility is there.
He's saying that even IF WE DO grow weary....we still have to do good.

And anything we do for God is a work of God as in Ephesians 2:10

If we want to call ourselves a Christian, we are required to be a disciple and work for God.
Those in the Kingdom of God will be doing the works of the Kingdom...
It's a real place (dimension) with a real ruler and real rules.

Check every letter of Paul. He tells us what not to do, flip it and he's telling us what TO DO.

Some here say this is descriptive and not prescriptive.
I say we stop using words that are not even biblical and read the N.T. plainly and understand its simple message.

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


This is sanctification.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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Jesus said these things in His revelations to John at Patmos to the Church in Sardis not Ephesus, sorry for that and thanks for asking which called my attention.

"Saved and born again in real time here on earth."?

I have a question, have you died in your sinful nature and raised up with Christ unto incorruption and immortality?

...And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.”
John 6:39-40

...How foolish! What you sow does not come to life UNLESS IT DIES. When you sow, YOU DO NOT PLANT THE BODY THAT WILL BE, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 1 Corinthians 15:36-37

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. FOR THE PERISHABLE MUST CLOTHE ITSELF WITH THE IMPERISHABLE, AND THE MORTAL WITH IMMORTALITY. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! HE GIVES US THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. Therefore, my dear brothers, STAND FIRM. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because YOU KNOW THAT YOUR LABOR IN THE LORD IS NOT IN VAIN. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58
It's important to quote scripture because there's no other way to know what a member is speaking about. A poster here always mentions the "incorruptible seed"...how we take on the incorruptible.

Your scripture posted above shows that this incorruptible seed happens AFTER our death and not before. (which would be 1 Corinthians 15:50-58).

When scripture is posted, a reader can see for himself what is being said.
As is proven by this thread...some scripture is misunderstood, or understood in such as way as to make it conform to a belief that already exists. (eisegesis).

We take on incorruptible seed after we die...when we will never die again...we become immortal and get back this gift which we originally had before the fall.