Not By Works

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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Simple question...do you believe that a person can get saved and then not bear ANY fruit for the first three years of their salvation?

Void of any fruit what so ever?

uhhh even an increase in faith is fruit He works in us through the Holy spirit

God is not deceived... not everyone who calls Him Lord actually believe
that is why He never knew them

even if these people believe to have fruit and point to their works as proof...
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
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changing the subject won't hide the fact that you just contradicted your own belief system.

as far as " show me where .... " I have already said " I stand corrected " twice.

but, that's o.k., you see the truth, heck, you just ADMITED truth, but since it goes against your belief system, you have to shove truth away.
NO, what you did is move the goalposts from new believer not bearing fruit for years to how often or how much. That is called moving the goalposts. Well played.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Void of any fruit what so ever?

uhhh even an increase in faith is fruit He works in us through the Holy spirit

God is not deceived... not everyone who calls Him Lord actually believe
that is why He never knew them

even if these people believe to have fruit and point to their works as proof...
but we aren't saved temporarily based on the number or rate of fruit produced through us....

we are saved eternally
by grace through faith

born again

then He encourages us
blesses us
leads us

or... if as His children we do not conform

chastens us

and if we are His

we endure
we are faithful till the end to Him

we are not of those who fall back into perdition (though we may appear to be for a season as in luke 15 and be perceived as dead)

those who go out from us
were not of us
or no doubt would have continued with us


He will in no wise cast out one of His own

no man can pluck us from His hand (including us)

and He will not forsake his own
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
Simple question...do you believe that a person can get saved and then not bear ANY fruit for the first three years of their salvation?

Yes or no

Then go read post 596 of God lied.

this is the question that was under discussion when you came in.
If you don't want to answer the question, just let me know, goalpost mover.
 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
43
I have studied and been a christian for a DECADE and I would still consider myself a ROOKIE at best! My mind isnt made up on many subjects and im still LOOKING INTO THEM. From all points of view.

Saying 75% of your church is "RESCUED" from other baptist churches means either two things: Either these were some garbage baptist churches and you rescued them to sound-doctrine, OR you are just creeping in UNAWARES and taking the sheep and indoctrinating with some UNSOUND doctrine.
THE LORD KNOWS!
To be honest with you all I do is explain what many on this site is saying, things like, after being saved you can't go to hell even if you wanted to!!

I cannot tell you the number of people that I have explained their pastor believes that if they ever backslid and go back 2 their sinful lifestyle of fornication, drunkenness Etc and died while in that backslid condition, that they would still go to heaven. 99 percent say to me "no I don't believe that"

When I said to Dcon in an earlier post that he did not get that dumb on his own he had to have help here's what I meant:

I have found that most people who believed OSAS are
people who have been taught this stuff. But you take people who has never been to church saved maybe in a prison service who only has there Bible and prayer to grow in God, I've never found one that comes to the conclusion of unconditional eternal security

To be quite honest with you I hope you guys are right, I really do because I have a cousin who died like a fool in a backslidden condition. At one time he serve God Faithfully, could play any instrument in the church and sing like a professional. He died in adultery in the arms of his girlfriend not his wife and children if you guys are right he's in heaven today. But as much as I want you to be right when I read scripture i can't help but see the danger of this false security Doctrine
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
6,698
2,457
113
If you don't want to answer the question, just let me know, goalpost mover.
the answer is this- since Jesus did not give an exact amount of fruit one is to bear, and how often ( most fruit trees do not bear fruit year round), then neither should we.

and this is another reason I correctly call you a legalist .

a non- legalist would say " a believer is supposed to bear fruit".


the legalist ( you ) come in and say " that's not good enough! how much? how often? what kind? "

like you are doing here.

after you yourself completely contradicted yourself with your own words.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,816
113
To be quite honest with you I hope you guys are right, I really do because I have a cousin who died like a fool in a backslidden condition. At one time he serve God Faithfully, could play any instrument in the church and sing like a professional. He died in adultery in the arms of his girlfriend not his wife and children if you guys are right he's in heaven today. But as much as I want you to be right when I read scripture i can't help but see the danger of this false security Doctrine
When Jesus paid for all sins with His blood, did that blood also cover your cousin's adultery?
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
1,785
1,602
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john 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
________
1 peter

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

________

Romans 11:
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


_______

John 6:36-40
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hi brother...
Beautiful Scriptures spoken by our Lord , to those who are IN Christ Jesus...xox...
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I know according to dcon I'm idiotic for asking this question but here we go anyhow:

1.) Why does our advasary, the devil (not me dcon, lol) continue attacking us? 1 Peter 5
2) if Satan believed we were eternally secured unconditionally why would he waste his time?
3) why does Ephesians 6 tell is to put on the whole armour of God and we are in a warfare?

The Bible mentions the book of Life 4 times. 3 of the 4 it talks of blotting out your name from it. If this isn't possible why did God warn us about it?

Many on here said ananias and Sapphira went to heaven even after lying to the Holy ghost and falling dead. Is that not a contradiction to Rev 21?

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 KJV
if i may?

Satans main goal in life is to get us to mistrust god.

What a better way to get us to doubt god than to get us to question our salvation, or gods faithfulness,

He wants to devour us, the best weapon satan has is to get us to doubt we have eternal life, and because we sin, we are at danger of losing salvation.

His takes our focus off god, and loving others, and puts our focus on self, and trying to live up to some standard, instead of realising there is on standard, and we have failed to meet it, are failing and will fail, so instead of judging ourselves when we fail and being tore down, we focus on God, his love go to the thron of grace because he has not given us a spirit of fear, and continue to focus on loving others,


The bible says if we deny him he will deny us, peter denied him three times, how did jesus restor him? By three times telling him to go and feed his people. Even thouh peter could not admit he agape’d jesus, jesus still said, i forgive you, go do what i made you to do, and look at the power of forgiveness that enbaled peter to be the man of gd he was. Instead of being torn b guilt and shame.

As john said, it is the knowldge we HAVE eternal life that empowers us to continue to trust god, satan wants to take that faith away and destroy it, how? By doubting our eternal life, and getting us to believe we have conditional life.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
1.

john 6
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

_______

2.

Ezekiel 36:26
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

___________

3.

1 peter 1

3.Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

_________

4.

1 john 3

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

philippians 3

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

romans 4

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.





1. saved by grace through faith

2. being made new and given new desires to conform to Him (and He that began a good work in us will continue to the day of Christ)


3. He promises eternal security to His own....



4. It is the imputed righteousness of Jesus that saves us... He gets the glory....




This thread was made to give God the glory....


seems a lot of folk just can't accept God for who He is....
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Hi brother...
Beautiful Scriptures spoken by our Lord , to those who are IN Christ Jesus...xox...

amen sister...


what a lovely Father we have to not only save us and adopt us as His own while we do not deserve it

but then continue to love us even through our mistakes


so much so to do whats best for us always wether it is tough love
silence or a gentle hand

in order we can help others who He loves and learn how to love as He does....


He is..... "unbelievable"😏
(pun intended... lol I not only believe Him but am learning more and more of Him and loving every second of it...)
 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
43
I will say it again and embellish this time.....

dcontroversal said:
That is one of the most idiotic conclusions I have seen in my 52 years.............while lacking any cognitive reasoning...........
I'm sorry professor I didn't realize you was looking for intellectual stimulation with the questions you choose to answer.

I've been called an idiot before, and maybe I am...... But I am smart enough to know you did not answer my question. I'm going to ask it again and I'm typing real slooooooow

Do you think your adversary the devil believes the doctrine of OSAS?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
2,835
1,978
113
To be honest with you all I do is explain what many on this site is saying, things like, after being saved you can't go to hell even if you wanted to!!

I cannot tell you the number of people that I have explained their pastor believes that if they ever backslid and go back 2 their sinful lifestyle of fornication, drunkenness Etc and died while in that backslid condition, that they would still go to heaven. 99 percent say to me "no I don't believe that"

When I said to Dcon in an earlier post that he did not get that dumb on his own he had to have help here's what I meant:

I have found that most people who believed OSAS are
people who have been taught this stuff. But you take people who has never been to church saved maybe in a prison service who only has there Bible and prayer to grow in God, I've never found one that comes to the conclusion of unconditional eternal security

To be quite honest with you I hope you guys are right, I really do because I have a cousin who died like a fool in a backslidden condition. At one time he serve God Faithfully, could play any instrument in the church and sing like a professional. He died in adultery in the arms of his girlfriend not his wife and children if you guys are right he's in heaven today. But as much as I want you to be right when I read scripture i can't help but see the danger of this false security Doctrine
Hey.

I understand your concern. But may I say, coming from a background of CONDITIONAL security, the people I saw in those "circles" were ALSO involved in adultery, just like your cousin!

So just because someone believes you can lose your salvation DOES NOT guarantee obedience! I have seen many in that "camp" fall into all kinds of sins.

It doesn't really matter if you believe OSAS, Not-OSAS, perseverance of the saints, mormonism, santa claus, you will find people in that camp fall into all kinds of sins. This i have noticed!
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
So I Should listen to your arrogant attacks, when you can not even show how Jesus could mean anything else, and will not even remark about johns words?

Gal 5 was answered, sinners do those things it is their livelihood, believers can not live in thise sins anymore, and paul himself answered you in corinthians, when he said they were those sinners to, but what was his answer? Again as i SHOWED YOU, they were WASHED they were JUSTIFIED and they were SANCTIFIED in jesus name (he never said they stopped those sins, in fact the corinthian church struggled with sexual sin, as babes in christ,

Either way, not only have you been shown to be proud, your also shown to be a lair saying i never responded to those things. When i have.

As for mark 3, i have now given you multiple times to show me where jesus said “may” be forgiven, or “might be forgiven” or “will be forgiven only if you do this” and you have failed, because you can’t they are not there, and you know it, thats why you continue to belittle like you do, because you know you can not dounter me on that passage. And you refuse to even acknowledge johns words,




1 John 3: Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.....He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

If you would get off your high horse for one minute, you would see your made up argument fails.

No i do not say jesus is saying whoever lives in sin is forgiven, he would be contradicting john, who said whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God, because a child of god can not live in sin because gods seed is in them.

Your stuck in a religious pharisee mindset, thus you have a wrong view of what words or terms like all sin, and living in sin, mean, thats why you cant see it, don’t blame me because you refuse to look and see if you may be wrong.

,
Your little rant does not impress me. Your excuse for Gal5:19-21 is nonsensical
sinners do those things it is their livelihood, believers can not live in thise sins anymore,

Paul is writing to believers, and warning them of behaviour that would bar them from the kingdom of Heaven, as anyone with little discernment would know, apparantly, you, in yourv effort to stay with your false beliefs refuse to see what a child could see.
1John3:9 was responded to.
Lets make it easy for you, as you find it hard to grasp much. A person claims to have become a Christian, they are a drunk, habitual thief, and a constant blasphemer, God will accept them there and then on the basis of a righteousness of faith in Christ, but if no change subsequently takes place in them, they were never born of God in the first place(1John3:9) for they have just continued on in the sins they had before they claim to have become a Christian. Even if you cannot understand that I am confident others can. Faith without works is dead faith. 1John3:9 explained
Gal5:19-21 refers to a different scenario
People make a commitment to Christ, they receive the good news with joy. It is wonderful for them to have a saviour from sin, and they have had to do nothing to earn or deserve their salvation. But they made a shallow commitment, they did not count the cost of what following Jesus is(Luke ch14) Some change takes place in them(unlike the previous scenario), but when hardships or trials come along, their initial enthusiasm starts to wane, for they did not count the cost of discipleship. They can start drifting back into bad habits. And Paul, who obviously knew some in the Thesasalonian church could be as described warned them of the consequences of behaviour that would bar them from the kingdom of Heaven. Two different scenarios concerning 1John3:9&Gal5:19-21 But as you are having to go to ridiculous lengths to try and justify your errant beliefs continued discussion here is pointless.
BTW
There is a very good reason you cannot relate Mark3?:28 to Gal5:19-21. Lets play Bible Trivia, you are obviously excluded because you are adamant they can be linked. So the first person to give me the answer as to why they cannot be linked gets a thumbs up
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,761
2,826
113
To be honest with you all I do is explain what many on this site is saying, things like, after being saved you can't go to hell even if you wanted to!!

I cannot tell you the number of people that I have explained their pastor believes that if they ever backslid and go back 2 their sinful lifestyle of fornication, drunkenness Etc and died while in that backslid condition, that they would still go to heaven. 99 percent say to me "no I don't believe that"

When I said to Dcon in an earlier post that he did not get that dumb on his own he had to have help here's what I meant:

I have found that most people who believed OSAS are
people who have been taught this stuff. But you take people who has never been to church saved maybe in a prison service who only has there Bible and prayer to grow in God, I've never found one that comes to the conclusion of unconditional eternal security

To be quite honest with you I hope you guys are right, I really do because I have a cousin who died like a fool in a backslidden condition. At one time he serve God Faithfully, could play any instrument in the church and sing like a professional. He died in adultery in the arms of his girlfriend not his wife and children if you guys are right he's in heaven today. But as much as I want you to be right when I read scripture i can't help but see the danger of this false security Doctrine

My first reaction is scream, "CAN'T YOU SEE YOU ARE DEPENDING ON YOU TO KEEP YOURSELF SAVED!!!"

It's been so long now since the revelation that JESUS ALONE saved, keeps me saved, and will continue to keep me saved, that I sometimes forget that I had your mindset. Using my human intellect to deduce that we HAD to DO SOMETHING to remain saved. How can we remain saved if we keep on sinning? Surely there will come a point where God says ENOUGH!! You are no longer saved!
So there begins this endless cycle of sinning feeling awful about it, promising to never do it again, ... only to find yourself DOING IT AGAIN! Then the enemy wallops you with a feeling of CONDEMNATION. So now we're constantly focusing on sin, and NOT sinning, instead of keeping our eyes on JESUS!
Who will free me from this body of death!!

Jesus does!

NOW, once we are saved we are born again, with a NEW heart, a NEW creation, with us IN Christ and Christ IN us. If we stray He will draw us back. If we sin He will discipline us. If we keep sinning, the discipline get's harsher. Why would He do that? Why would He just not care and let us leave and "live any way we want"?

BECAUSE WE ARE HIS KIDS!!!!

The question should NEVER be "can you lose your Salvation".

The questionS SHOULD be, are you born again, and if so, what are you doing with this great gift?

Please don't send your new Church down this "yeah, Jesus saves us, but WE have to DO X to remain saved" road.

It's very destructive,
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,258
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Void of any fruit what so ever?

uhhh even an increase in faith is fruit He works in us through the Holy spirit

God is not deceived... not everyone who calls Him Lord actually believe
that is why He never knew them

even if these people believe to have fruit and point to their works as proof...
Thank you NoName, as most people here understand that because of my cancer treatments I am limited but not "void of works" as you rightly describe in your post. As a matter of fact my Pastor agreed that praying is something that I can do that will build up the body of Christ which we both agreed was true.

The offering of the widow's mite, and as you point out that many will say; "Lord Lord, have we not done many things.", should let us know you cannot always judge a persons eternal salvation by their works. When the Apostle Paul was defending his Apostolic Authority he said to the Church, "You are judging by appearances."2Cor10:7.
Make "righteous judgment," and not by appearances, or stop being a "fruit inspector" and let God be the righteous judge. :)

John 7:24
Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."

The parable of the wheat and the tares tells us that God will sort out the real from the fake


Matthew 13:30 the parable of the weeds
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn

2 Corinthians 10:7
You are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do

Mark 12:42
But a poor widow came and 'put in two very small copper coins', worth only a few cents

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not' prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,761
2,826
113
How about this question. If a person made a commitment to Christ, but did not firstly count the cost involved(Luke ch14 for example) would God still place them in a saved state?
You think it's your commitment to Christ that saves you?
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
Hmmmm....seems we are being targeted by some trolls again.

o_O
Hmmmm....seems we are being targeted by some trolls again.

o_O
I love your bible verse, in my view, one of the most under stressed verses in the whole bible. Could you explain why sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace