Not By Works

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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You and I would agree, the believers righteousness is faith in Christ. That is our justification/righteousness before the Father, and what stands between us and hell/eternal damnation.
Amen!

A person can get saved when they are dead in transgression/sin(Eph2:5) All they have to do is repent, ask Christ into their lives as Lord and saviour and they are saved. They then set out on the Christian path. Their sin is irrelevant as long as they stay on the true path. The sanctification process begins and God will deal with issues in each of our lives according to the importance of what needs to be dealt with naturally. And as long as we are looking to Christ, and seeking to live an evermore holy life in him we have peace, despite the imperfections in our flesh. Think of a traffic light, the light is green, everything is fine.

But the Christian can step outside of that path, they can stop following after the Holy Spirit in the truth of the Gospel message:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal5:16-21
Galatians 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who "practice" such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. *These are not believers.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God "practices" sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, we see a similar list of sins that were mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21, and Paul goes on to describe such people who practice these sins, in contrast with those who don't. 9 Or do you not know that the UNRIGHTEOUS will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 *Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

*Notice that Paul refers to these people who will not inherit the kingdom of God as the UNRIGHTEOUS, not the righteous. *They were not genuine believers.

So in practical terms, what happens if you step outside of the true path you should be on and follow after the flesh, what are the implications of that? I always use this example. A convert meets a pretty woman, he sleeps with her. He has now followed after the flesh not the Spirit. Can he now say ‘’Everythings fine, I am a work in progress, Jesus died for my sins, I’m ok.’’ Of course he cannot, no born again Christian could do that. He will be struck with remorse, and his faith has suffered. He repents of his folly, not because he fears hell if he does not, but because he regrets what he has done and wants his peace back. and hopefully he gets straight back on the path he should be on. But what if he does not? What if he sleeps with the woman again? Easier to do the second time. What results? His faith suffers, and sin starts to take a hold of him in this area of his life. He continues on in such sin. He can no longer look to Jesus and in his heart trust he is saved because Jesus died for him can he, that is not how it works. He is no longer following after the Spirit in the truth of the message on the correct path but has pandered to the flesh. What is the result? His faith suffers, it becomes weaker and weaker as the flesh becomes stronger and stronger. In the end, due to living a sinfull lifestyle for long enough, he has no faith left. He can no longer trust Christ is his righteousness before the Father. Head assertion does not count, heartfelt belief has gone. He no longer has his justification in the Father’s sight. He is now in an unsaved state.
Where does the Bible specifically say, "no longer trust Christ in His righteousness/no longer justified/lost salvation? In Romans 8:30, we read ..and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. So according to you, Jesus will allow His sheep to be snatched from his hands? (John 10:27-29). The Lord's saints are not preserved forever? (Psalm 37:28) Believers are not sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption? (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

Now who would be most likely to go down this path? A person who made a commitment without counting the cost of discipleship(Luke ch14) someone who only made a shallow commitment (the second example in the parable of the sower) Someone who was willing to make a full commitment would not err to such a degree. So because a shallow commitment was made, the man gets pulled away to a lifestyle of sin, because that happens he ends up losing the only righteousness he can have: Faith in Christ. His sin we can say caused him to lose his salvation for it robbed him of his righteousness before God, faith in Christ
A shallow commitment is not a true commitment, so such a person was not saved. Judas Iscariot is a good example.

Have we biblical verses to back this up? Yes:

But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel Col 1:22&23
The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Whenever you have a group (especially a very large group) of professing Christians, it's not hard to find nominal Christians mixed in with a group of genuine Christians. Which makes sense why Paul would write this way. Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with and they were not saved.

Concerning your 101 verses. The bible is a big book, and different things are written to different people. When the rich young ruler asked Christ what he must do to inherit eternal life, why did Jesus not respond with John3:16? Because he knew the young man before he spoke to him. Different words for different situations/people.
Exactly. Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). I have often heard works-salvationists use what Jesus said to the rich young ruler to teach that salvation is obtained based on the merits of obeying the commandments.

I'm still looking for a verse in the Bible that unequivocally says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation," but am yet to find it.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I tire of this conversation. You are not as far along the road of maturity as you should be, and you refuse to have one whole bible, just the bits you are content with. That is far from Christian maturity
Bye
Ok. Be Blessed!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,453
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Well said!

Im also struggling to reconcile Acts 2:38 with the rest of the NT!! I have been ever since I read it, I have heard all the greek arguments about the middle-voice and passive-voice and all that, but to me thats just babel, i dont speak greek so its irrelevant to me. I know its translated the same way in every english and other language bible ive ever seen!

What im struggling to reconcile is this:

Matthew 28:19 says to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Acts 2:38 says to baptize in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
PAUL says he "wasnt sent to baptize" well how is that possible? since its part of the great commission!

I will probably die of natural causes until I get a satisfactory answer to Acts 2:38! Its baptismal regeneration through and through, and because of that verse, the churches of Christ exists (and other groups).
And I can never refute them because no matter how much I quote Acts 10 where they get the Spirit BEFORE water baptism, Acts 2:38 still says the same thing.

EDIT: Im reading back my post and im DERAILING the thread again. Oy vey!
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* (y)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Well said!

Im also struggling to reconcile Acts 2:38 with the rest of the NT!! I have been ever since I read it, I have heard all the greek arguments about the middle-voice and passive-voice and all that, but to me thats just babel, i dont speak greek so its irrelevant to me. I know its translated the same way in every english and other language bible ive ever seen!

What im struggling to reconcile is this:

Matthew 28:19 says to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Acts 2:38 says to baptize in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
PAUL says he "wasnt sent to baptize" well how is that possible? since its part of the great commission!

I will probably die of natural causes until I get a satisfactory answer to Acts 2:38! Its baptismal regeneration through and through, and because of that verse, the churches of Christ exists (and other groups).
And I can never refute them because no matter how much I quote Acts 10 where they get the Spirit BEFORE water baptism, Acts 2:38 still says the same thing.

EDIT: Im reading back my post and im DERAILING the thread again. Oy vey!
Never heard the passive and middle voice argument

What convinced me was the verbs used which showed who peter was talking to, and the knowledge that “for” does not always man in order to recieve something,
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
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Amen!

Galatians 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who "practice" such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. *These are not believers.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God "practices" sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, we see a similar list of sins that were mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21, and Paul goes on to describe such people who practice these sins, in contrast with those who don't. 9 Or do you not know that the UNRIGHTEOUS will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 *Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

*Notice that Paul refers to these people who will not inherit the kingdom of God as the UNRIGHTEOUS, not the righteous. *They were not genuine believers.

Where does the Bible specifically say, "no longer trust Christ in His righteousness/no longer justified/lost salvation? In Romans 8:30, we read ..and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. So according to you, Jesus will allow His sheep to be snatched from his hands? (John 10:27-29). The Lord's saints are not preserved forever? (Psalm 37:28) Believers are not sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption? (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

A shallow commitment is not a true commitment, so such a person was not saved. Judas Iscariot is a good example.

The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Whenever you have a group (especially a very large group) of professing Christians, it's not hard to find nominal Christians mixed in with a group of genuine Christians. Which makes sense why Paul would write this way. Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with and they were not saved.

Exactly. Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). I have often heard works-salvationists use what Jesus said to the rich young ruler to teach that salvation is obtained based on the merits of obeying the commandments.

I'm still looking for a verse in the Bible that unequivocally says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation," but am yet to find it.
Just briefly, you cannot link Gal5:19-21 to 1John3:9, the latter refers to those who claim to come to Christ but continue on in the same sins as before, and the galaians text refers top those who have been believers for at least a while
If a shallow commitment does not get you into a saved state you are back to having to contradict scripture whichever view you take. In my view that is a no no
The quotes about remaining in the faith are clearly written

If you cannot accept a person who partook of the Holy Spirit lost their salvation, nothing else I can say will convince you otherwise
Sorry am in a rush, thanks for taking the time to read it
 
Dec 27, 2018
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She is trying to egg you on bro, don’t bite. She has proved her dihonesty, you do not need to expose her, she has exposed herself.
Eg changed DC's words from " it takes years" to "might take years" in his defence of the quote.

Changing words and taking my quotes out of context is dishonest

Leave me alone.this will be settled at the bema seat
See you then
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Eg changed DC's words from " it takes years" to "might take years" in his defence of the quote.

Changing words and taking my quotes out of context is dishonest

Leave me alone.this will be settled at the bema seat
See you then
Took one look, as i opened the thread to see who someone was talking to, and of course, i found this, still trying to defend his mistake and blame shift..

I did not change words, you took what DC said and tried to poke holes in it, and considering dc’s response to the actual question you posed, you are still proven a bearer of false witness (saying DC inferred something he never said)

As you yourself said, changing words and taking someones post is dishonest, so you just judged yourself!

The last thing we will think of at the bema seat are these discussions, but if you want to keep puffing yourself up, and bearing false witness against people. You will soon find out that doing that is sin, although you should know it already.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Anyone who preaches a false Gospel will not go to heaven , but surely you know the answer to your question ?...xox...
Ephesians 1:6-7
He still has not given his defenition of what heresy is, he generalises the term by saying Gods view, which could mean many things,
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It aint that deep....... this is just a forum online.

BEMA SEAT, really? Hahahaha. Take a deep breath bro, its not that serious.
Ah, funny, guess that was the post i was looking for after all..lol.. some people..ha ha!,,
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thanks! You are the first person with the honesty to answer my question. Thank you very much.
So according to you, heresy is JUST a false gospel, not anything else? (I have asked this before)

Forgive us, but if you ask a general question most will not answer until the question is confirmed and known, you gave to generalised of answers
 
Feb 13, 2019
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So according to you, heresy is JUST a false gospel, not anything else? (I have asked this before)

Forgive us, but if you ask a general question most will not answer until the question is confirmed and known, you gave to generalised of answers
My question is about a heretic according to God.

This is just my opinion; I do not believe God will allow a heretic into heaven.
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
Amen!

Galatians 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who "practice" such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. *These are not believers.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God "practices" sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

.
Sorry I had a couple of things to do, when you read the whole segment, it is obvious who is being written to:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is certainly writing to believers, for he is telling them they must follow after the Spirit not the flesh, only believers can do that. And if they are led by the Spirit they are not under law. He then gives a list of examples of what following after the flesh, instead of the Spirit can be. Then he warns them if they live like that they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Cannot be simply referring to unbelievers
1John3:9 is very different. If you claim to have become a christian but no change subsequently takes place in your life, you just continue on in the same old sins, you were not born of God in the first place, for faith without works is dead faith
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,453
13,394
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Just briefly, you cannot link Gal5:19-21 to 1John3:9, the latter refers to those who claim to come to Christ but continue on in the same sins as before, and the galaians text refers top those who have been believers for at least a while
If a shallow commitment does not get you into a saved state you are back to having to contradict scripture whichever view you take. In my view that is a no no
The quotes about remaining in the faith are clearly written

If you cannot accept a person who partook of the Holy Spirit lost their salvation, nothing else I can say will convince you otherwise
Sorry am in a rush, thanks for taking the time to read it
The word practice is used in both Galatians 5:21 and 1 John 3:9 and practicing sin is descriptive of those who are not born of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 contrasts the unrighteous who practice such sins in contrast with those who do not practice such sins and were washed, sanctified and justified. No contradictions, just scripture harmonizing with scripture. If the Roman Catholic church could not convince me that truly "saved" people can truly "lose their salvation" then neither will you be able to. Have a nice day.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Do you believe heretics go to hell?
The type of heretic that goes to hell, was never saved.

But a sheep lacking knowledge who has a genuine faith in Jesus as his Savior goes to heaven if they are born again and adopted.


One wheat and one tare may hold the same error.... the wheat has been made new born again and is lacking in spiritual wisdom (obviously not called to be a teacher in this state) .... the other is a wolf being used by satan pushing heresy.... (being used by satan to teach garbage)

141. hairetikos ►
Strong's Concordance
hairetikos: causing division
Original Word: αἱρετικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hairetikos
Phonetic Spelling: (hahee-ret-ee-kos')
Definition: causing division
Usage: disposed to form sects, sectarian, heretical, factious.

139. hairesis ►
Strong's Concordance
hairesis: choice, opinion
Original Word: αἵρεσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hairesis
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-ee-res-is)
Definition: choice, opinion
Usage: a self-chosen opinion, a religious or philosophical sect, discord or contention.



(though I think it is safe to say, many specific forms of heresy would prove no genuine faith.... if we aren't trusting in Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior and born again and covered by His blood..... no justification)



(also you said "This is just my opinion; I do not believe God will allow a heretic into heaven." )
hairesis ►
Strong's Concordance
hairesis: choice, opinion
Original Word: αἵρεσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hairesis
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-ee-res-is)
Definition: choice, opinion
Usage: a self-chosen opinion, a religious or philosophical sect, discord or contention.