Not By Works

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Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,631
113
Macabeus you are obsessed about this topic almost lol

You have been going on and on about that for numerous pages now.

Why is this particualr issue so important to you? Have you considered starting a garden? May I suggest apple trees, they can grow even in climates with a long winter like where im from.
Just make sure you dont eat any fruit that falls on the ground. It can have epidemic nephropathy ! It comes from rodents who have it.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
Scripture tells us we are made alive with Christ even when wee are dead in transgression/sinEph2:5, and our righteousness is faith in Christ. And I take the point, an alcoholic could be instantly delivered , or for another it may take time. In saying that though, I would not feel comfortable myself with the idea a person could remain an alcoholic for years. Sometimes they get drunk and sometimes they do not(is that what you mean, or as they are an alcoholic they always get drunk, not sure exactly what you mean?)
In my view, God starts with the things he considers most important that need changing once you get saved, I would think drunkenness would be very high on the list
I don't think we can limit it to one thing as here.

We tend to focus the big ones, but neglect the smaller ones.
Like gossip, lying, gluttony (smaller ones)

To be perfectly honest I myself am comfortable that a person who struggles with a particular sin/sins for a long time after placing their faith in Jesus.

I find your following quote interesting.

In my view, God starts with the things he considers most important that need changing once you get saved, I would think drunkenness would be very high on the list
I am going to give my thoughts on the above post. It's just my thoughts and assumptions on the quote. And I acknowledge that I could be wrong and I'm not being accusatory because your quote is quite limited as to an issue (it could be any issue) that is very high on the list of God.

Hopefully I can explain it based on personal experience.

If you don't mind me saying so this is your opinion and thoughts.
You seem to be placing focus on the effect and not the cause.

You rightly say that we are made alive in Christ even though we were dead in our transgressions and our righteousness is in Christ through faith.

Even though we are made alive in Christ whilst in our transgressions (sin) it does not necessarily mean that such sins suddenly stop or a time stamp is placed on them.

In a sense I believe we can judge a person who confesses faith with a sin(s) issue.

The one who has genuine faith but has sin(s) issues will hate it and want to stop it, will cry out to God for help.

The one who does not have genuine faith will not give two hoots about it and use the grace of Jesus to sin. Which we know Paul addressed.

But we will not know until we come alongside in discipleship to see below what is going on in the person's heart.

So my experience. As a believer.

Severe gambling problem.
It was so bad that I found myself gambling and did not know I was.
One minute sat at my desk, an hour later I've blown 1,000s on fruit machines.

It got so bad I asked God to take my life.
I have a wife and 4 kids. I knew he would take care of them.
I even tried to total my car many times. As you can see it did not happen.

I just wanted to die and know where I was going. Heaven or hell.
Fact is I was living hell on earth.

Severe gambling addiction.
I prayed so hard for release, tried to stop. I even sprinkled oil over the doors of the places I went to. Resolved when I cried myself to work not to gamble, pleading and begging God for release. Afraid to wake up.

I stopped gambling 8 years ago at the age of 43. Started at 13.

I basically stopped over a period of a few weeks. And I have never had an urge since.

Why was that?

God had to deal with the cause of the effect.

What was the effect?

I had a shocking upbringing.

I was meant to be aborted, my mum was on the table. But she said no.
She was bought up a Muslim. Shame on her my grandad said.
She was rejected by her dad.
She blamed me as she bought me up.
She was an alcoholic.
Married many times.
Beat me harshly.
Called me names that would make a sailor blush.
Left me alone to look after my two brothers whilst she pissed it up.
Did not come to visit me when I was saved from death by 30 seconds when my appendix burst.
Threw me out at the age of 13.
Didn't speak for a couple of years.
Was fostered by a Christian couple.
Spent the next 4 years being sexually abused by the foster dad.

When I spoke to my foster mum about it, it turns out he went to prison when they run a a children's home. He promised he would not try again. But he carried on.

I did not have the heart to tell her.

I spoke to my real mum.
The next thing I know the C.I.D arrived at the house of my foster parents.
When my foster mum opened the door and asked to speak to me, she knew why.
She begged me not to say anything.

So I was led to police car and asked the question. Is he sexually abusing you?

No I had 3 choices.

If yes then I would have to back to my mother, if I did not want to then off to a children's home.

If no then I could stay there and still be abused but have 3 meals a day.
That was more certain than the other two choices. Birthday remembered.

If I went back to mum would the pattern repeat itself.

Sorry for the long post but gonna finish it now.

For my addiction to stop God had to deal with the cause of the effect.

I needed healing, I needed to forgive.
In fact I was at my abusers bedside when he died and sorted out his estate.
My mum and I have a great relationship, she even tells me that she loves me.
For 40 years she never told me that, unless pissed.

So Jesus healed me.

So for me that is high on his list and not the gambling or any other sin and baggage that we have when we come to Jesus.
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
ah, so now I see what is behind your lack of being able to accept how fruit grows and matures.

you think sanctification is instantaneous .

you could not be more wrong.

moving on. nothing to see here. just another person so steeped in religious mindset, they can't see the forest for the tress.
Why do you keep misquoting what people state? He said instantaneous and progressive
You never ever heard of a Christian being delivered of some sin at the point of conversion?(instantaneous) but other sin takes time(progressive) and no one will reach a state of sinless perfection(just in case I get accused of believing that)
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
ah, so now I see what is behind your lack of being able to accept how fruit grows and matures.

you think sanctification is instantaneous .

you could not be more wrong.

moving on. nothing to see here. just another person so steeped in religious mindset, they can't see the forest for the tress.
What? You and DC weren't set apart as holy unto the LORD when you were saved?

Wow, just wow
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Wrong again....you do not believe in eternal security....you believe in a self maintained salvation that is dependent upon what YOU do and not what Christ does.......and that is the difference between you and I.....

I boast in JESUS

You boast in yourself and what YOU DO to maintain it....<----that is NOT the faith and hope the bible lays bare.....

And who cares about all of the Baskin Robbins 57 flavors of Christianity.......woven throughout that whole mess is a linage of truthful churches and believers........

And as far as the (sad statement) WHY would I agree with someone that ignores context, Greek verb tense, hundreds of scriptures and the simple truth that the irrevocable gift of faith is what saves a man eternally...the same FAITH JESUS begins, finishes and COMPLETES

You do understand the words FINISHES and COMPLETES right
Does faith ALONE save us?
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
I don't think we can limit it to one thing as here.

We tend to focus the big ones, but neglect the smaller ones.
Like gossip, lying, gluttony (smaller ones)

To be perfectly honest I myself am comfortable that a person who struggles with a particular sin/sins for a long time after placing their faith in Jesus.

I find your following quote interesting.



I am going to give my thoughts on the above post. It's just my thoughts and assumptions on the quote. And I acknowledge that I could be wrong and I'm not being accusatory because your quote is quite limited as to an issue (it could be any issue) that is very high on the list of God.

Hopefully I can explain it based on personal experience.

If you don't mind me saying so this is your opinion and thoughts.
You seem to be placing focus on the effect and not the cause.

You rightly say that we are made alive in Christ even though we were dead in our transgressions and our righteousness is in Christ through faith.

Even though we are made alive in Christ whilst in our transgressions (sin) it does not necessarily mean that such sins suddenly stop or a time stamp is placed on them.

In a sense I believe we can judge a person who confesses faith with a sin(s) issue.

The one who has genuine faith but has sin(s) issues will hate it and want to stop it, will cry out to God for help.

The one who does not have genuine faith will not give two hoots about it and use the grace of Jesus to sin. Which we know Paul addressed.

But we will not know until we come alongside in discipleship to see below what is going on in the person's heart.

So my experience. As a believer.

Severe gambling problem.
It was so bad that I found myself gambling and did not know I was.
One minute sat at my desk, an hour later I've blown 1,000s on fruit machines.

It got so bad I asked God to take my life.
I have a wife and 4 kids. I knew he would take care of them.
I even tried to total my car many times. As you can see it did not happen.

I just wanted to die and know where I was going. Heaven or hell.
Fact is I was living hell on earth.

Severe gambling addiction.
I prayed so hard for release, tried to stop. I even sprinkled oil over the doors of the places I went to. Resolved when I cried myself to work not to gamble, pleading and begging God for release. Afraid to wake up.

I stopped gambling 8 years ago at the age of 43. Started at 13.

I basically stopped over a period of a few weeks. And I have never had an urge since.

Why was that?

God had to deal with the cause of the effect.

What was the effect?

I had a shocking upbringing.

I was meant to be aborted, my mum was on the table. But she said no.
She was bought up a Muslim. Shame on her my grandad said.
She was rejected by her dad.
She blamed me as she bought me up.
She was an alcoholic.
Married many times.
Beat me harshly.
Called me names that would make a sailor blush.
Left me alone to look after my two brothers whilst she pissed it up.
Did not come to visit me when I was saved from death by 30 seconds when my appendix burst.
Threw me out at the age of 13.
Didn't speak for a couple of years.
Was fostered by a Christian couple.
Spent the next 4 years being sexually abused by the foster dad.

When I spoke to my foster mum about it, it turns out he went to prison when they run a a children's home. He promised he would not try again. But he carried on.

I did not have the heart to tell her.

I spoke to my real mum.
The next thing I know the C.I.D arrived at the house of my foster parents.
When my foster mum opened the door and asked to speak to me, she knew why.
She begged me not to say anything.

So I was led to police car and asked the question. Is he sexually abusing you?

No I had 3 choices.

If yes then I would have to back to my mother, if I did not want to then off to a children's home.

If no then I could stay there and still be abused but have 3 meals a day.
That was more certain than the other two choices. Birthday remembered.

If I went back to mum would the pattern repeat itself.

Sorry for the long post but gonna finish it now.

For my addiction to stop God had to deal with the cause of the effect.

I needed healing, I needed to forgive.
In fact I was at my abusers bedside when he died and sorted out his estate.
My mum and I have a great relationship, she even tells me that she loves me.
For 40 years she never told me that, unless pissed.

So Jesus healed me.

So for me that is high on his list and not the gambling or any other sin and baggage that we have when we come to Jesus.
I do understand you needed dealt with the cause of the effect, and thank you for sharing such painful memories.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
What? You and DC weren't set apart as holy unto the LORD when you were saved?

Wow, just wow
It is painfully obvious to many that--->either you cannot read or you cannot help but embellish what people say.....and the bible is clear on the dual usage of sanctification........and he is addressing the ongoing process in a believers life......do you even have an honest bone in your body......
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I think they come at this with the need to believe no one can lose their salvation, so it doesn't matter what scripture plainly states, it must be ignored, or somehow set aside. You cannot get any mature debate when that is the case, sadly
Agreed.
But I go forward with the idea that others are also on this thread but don't post...
Otherwise.......
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Guys i want to ask this from all of you reading this:

Do you LIKE doing righteousness? Do you like loving your enemies? Do you like turning the other cheek?

I heard in a sermon that if not, you've never been born again!

Well unfortunately for someone like me, the answer to all those questions is an honest NO. I absolutely hate turning the other cheek when someone offends me. i'd like to tell them how it is, and if they slap me literally, i'd like to KO them.

Over all, listening through that sermon, just made me feel like an unsaved devil, really. Its like, all the qualities that a born again Christian SHOULD HAVE, i do by the skin of my teeth (if thats what the saying was, i forgot the english proverb).

I'll create a fake situation: someone offends me, I wont say anything back to them, and i'll ask God to bless them in prayer, BUT in the mean while im in my mind cussing them out constantly. Then I ask God to forgive me for that, then the SECOND i've said amen, i think about the same things again. IT IS FRUSTRATING TO SAY THE LEAST. I do believe in Jesus and that He shed His blood on the cross for my sins and that its the only payment for my sins......

I dont know if its the STREEEETS that i come from, where i've learned all the wrong things and molded my thinking wrongly, but shouldnt God take care of that for saved people? Make it a JOY to be do righteousness? Instead of a pain!??

Can someone answer my questions honestly. Tell me how it is. PS: i dont believe this is derailing thread, SINCE its related to being born again.

Mark 7:6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

IS MY HEART FAR FROM THE LORD??

Matthew 23:27-28
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Am i full of hypocrisy and wickedness on the inside???
I'd love to answer you H.
But you seem to like Dcons answers better because they're easier to take,,,
even if they are NOT the truth.
So, I'll tell you this. Stop reading this thread and start doing some thinking on your own.
Do you read the N.T.?
How old are you anyway?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
So you would say that im saved even with the conditions that i mentioned?

Thanks! Lets see what others say indeed.
I really want to know if im the only one in the world like this, and if everyone else is just constantly loving to turn the other cheek with no hypocrisy!
My brother in Christ.

Why do you doubt?

What does Jesus say about Gods love for you?

He says that God loves you as much as he loves Jesus.
He has said he will never leave you or forsake you.
You are the apple of his eye.
He loves you with an everlasting love.

He knows you. He knitted you in your mother's womb.

Psalms 103:8-14
8 The Lord is compassionate and merciful,
slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love.
9 He will not constantly accuse us,
nor remain angry forever.
10 He does not punish us for all our sins;
he does not deal harshly with us, as we deserve.
11 For his unfailing love toward those who fear him
is as great as the height of the heavens above the earth.
12 He has removed our sins as far from us
as the east is from the west.
13 The Lord is like a father to his children,
tender and compassionate to those who fear him.
14 For he knows how weak we are;
he remembers we are only dust.

He is for you, not against you.
He loves you as much as he loves Jesus.
That's the love that nailed Jesus to the cross for you.

Do you know that love?
Will you accept accept that Love?

There is no fear in his love, because his love casts out that fear.

Even when we get it wrong.
We fess it up up, and his love is still the same,
It's constant.
It doesn't waver based on our performance but is constant based on his character.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Sure Fran.....only in your mind and now you added one....more deception fro the Queen of Deception.......here I fixed it
WOW, that is not good.

I know you preach preservation (God keeps me) of the saints not perseverance (I am a true saint proved by my works).

I think Ms. Fran is the one who is confused about the two doctrines.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
You already know my answer to that question Fran.....and the fish are not biting in the midst of winter....!!
It's not the winter here...or at least, it doesn't feel like it.
But we can't go by our feeling, can we?

So. OK. You believe faith alone saves you.

The N.T. proves you wrong.
Jesus said so and Paul said so.

Mathew 22:37-39 Jesus said:
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
38“This is the great and foremost commandment.
39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”



Paul said it like this:
1 Corinthians 13:2
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

It seems to me that to be saved we must have faith AND love.
Do you agree?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
There's a picture in Deuteronomy of Israel and the reason for a fall.

It's not what you would think. The results of this fall was idolatry.


Deu 32:15  But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

I was doing a topic look at the word salvation.

Jeshurun:



Total KJV occurrences: 4


H3484​
יְשֻׁרוּן​

yeshûrûn​

yesh-oo-roon'​


From H3474; upright; Jeshurun, a symbolical name for Israel: - Jeshurun.​


Total KJV occurrences: 4

waxed fat:

H8080​
שָׁמַן​

shâman​

shaw-man'​


A primitive root; to shine, that is, (by analogy) be (causatively make) oily or gross: - become (make, wax) fat.​


Total KJV occurrences: 4

and kicked:

H1163​
בָּעַט​

bâ‛aṭ​

baw-at'​


A primitive root; to trample down, that is, (figuratively) despise: - kick.​


Total KJV occurrences: 2

grown thick:

H5666​
עָבָה​

‛âbâh​

aw-baw'​


A primitive root; to be dense: - be (grow) thick (-er).​


Total KJV occurrences: 3

covered:

H3780​
כָּשָׂה​

kâśâh​

kaw-saw'​


A primitive root; to grow fat (that is, be covered with flesh): - be covered. Compare H3680.​


Total KJV occurrences: 1


forsook God:

H5203​
נָטַשׁ​

nâṭash​

naw-tash'​


A primitive root; properly to pound, that is, smite; by implication (as if beating out, and thus expanding) to disperse; also, to thrust off, down, out or upon (including reject, let alone, permit, remit, etc.): - cast off, drawn, let fall, forsake, join [battle], leave (off), lie still, loose, spread (self) abroad, stretch out, suffer.


Lightly esteemed:
H5034​
נָבֵל​

nâbêl​

naw-bale'​


A primitive root; to wilt; generally to fall away, fail, faint; figuratively to be foolish or (morally) wicked; causatively to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, -ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, X surely, make vile, wither.​


Total KJV occurrences: 25

rock of salvation:

H3444​
יְשׁוּעָה​

yeshû‛âh

yesh-oo'-aw​


Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.​


Total KJV occurrences: 78

The result of trusting in an upright walk rather than Yeshua, the rock of our salvation.

The law stirs up sin. How? One way is anger. The "I've done all these works for you God, why would you not accept me?

Falling away from trusting the only Saviour of all mankind. The good news. The good news brings repentance and turning to Him. Gives righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

I'm understanding more and more the obedience of faith. It's all about Yeshua and not of self.

Mantle is a good word to know and understand. Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ...make no provision for the flesh.

Mantle is to fall back into the garment of a wearer, so as to take on His personality. Day wear. lol day by day. Declare flesh dead.

Keeping our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Looking away from all else that distracts. We become like Him as we see (perceive) Him.

A prophet said this to us....the way you see Him, is the way you will serve Him.


















 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
I do understand you needed dealt with the cause of the effect, and thank you for sharing such painful memories.
But do you realise I'm not alone?

Serious question.

If you knew me and what I was doing what would you have said to me concerning my gambling.

It's not a trick question, or one to set you up.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Was the soil good before or after the seed was planted?

Oh and btw, CROPS don't take years to grow. If they did, people would have starved to death

Another indication that your exegesis is very flawed
Some soil is naturally good.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
It's not the winter here...or at least, it doesn't feel like it.
But we can't go by our feeling, can we?

So. OK. You believe faith alone saves you.

The N.T. proves you wrong.
Jesus said so and Paul said so.

Mathew 22:37-39 Jesus said:
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
38“This is the great and foremost commandment.
39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”



Paul said it like this:
1 Corinthians 13:2
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

It seems to me that to be saved we must have faith AND love.
Do you agree?
No :rolleyes:
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
But do you realise I'm not alone?

Serious question.

If you knew me and what I was doing what would you have said to me concerning my gambling.

It's not a trick question, or one to set you up.
I didn't know you, but if I did and you had of told me what you did in your previous post I hope I would have said the cause and effect needed to be dealt with.
I was speaking generally. The bible tells us we need to cross over from being slaves of sin when we come to Christ into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness. And Paul told they romans they used to be slaves to sin. I think you would agree, certain sin would bar us from crossing over from one state to the other. I have not found anyone yet who would disagree with that. I can only repeat, I was writing generally
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
That is what I would do...agree with an opinion that has no truth whatsoever at all in it....two peas in a pod you are....
You're funny D.
You have about 7 peas in a pod.
The same old peas declaring incorrect doctrine.

Since I've been here, I've seen MANY come and go that agree with me.
They just get tired of arguing with nonsense and leave after a while.
I'm more "tenacious".

I always have at least a few peas on my side....
Don't be so boastful...
I thought boasting in ones self was sinful?

You've NEVER heard me bring this up,,,but only scripture.
You like to talk about anything BUT scripture.

Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.