Not By Works

[Bingo]

"Christ In Us...'of Christ'...not so much 'about'...bears significant implications.
Are not we all 'about' God...but not all are 'of' ...the Spirit of Christ our Lord God.
Is not spiritual faith a proclamation of ones own personal relationship with an unseen God."
'Praise God'

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Undermining the power of God

Repent - oh that does not apply to me because Jesus has forgiven past, present and future sins
Obey - that does not apply because obedience is believing
Fear - Fear is evil and shows unbelief which is the unforgivable sin, so we must not fear
Judgement - oh that is only for sinners who do evil, believers who do evil are just forgiven

One could have a putrid heart, be lost in addiction to evil behaviour, yet the word of God would
be powerless to touch your heart. Imagine a whole congregation like this.

God would never send His children to the fire, that would be so wrong.
But those who do not listen are not His children, even if they claim to have called upon Him,
He answered and they refused to listen. The prophets of old had the same problem

'These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand.
What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'
Matt 15:8-11

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?
But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'"
Matt 15:17-20

You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean
Matt 23:25-27

Hatred is so deep, Jesus describes what hearts in darkness do when faced with the truth

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs.
If you do,
they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Matt 7:6

Thankfully such as these can only write words here and are not able to do what their hearts desire.
God bless you dear brothers and sisters in Christ, for in Christ and His ways we have life, and life eternal.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Who resists the word of God

Gods ways are simple, because He makes them so.
Ones heart has to break and submit to Him, but with His Spirit and knowing
His hearts ways, it flows from us.

And once you preach such a way, like magic people appear speaking abuse and
personal attacks to try and upset you, wound and cause anger, for in their sinful
thinking they believe such actions will declare the hypocrisy and failure of walking
this way.

But this just demonstrates they hate the way of the Lord and His people. They are
no better than the world, but doubly doomed because they claim to see and know
the Holy Spirit while opposing Him and His work. And the worst are doubly blind
and doomed, because the excesses of their language defame the Father, Son and
Holy Spirit. Everything is just filtered into their doctrinal view and any contradictions
in their life or beliefs ignored or explained away.

Nothing can touch them, which demonstrates the lack of a living relationship with
God, when all the time things touch and effect us, because we have hearts of flesh
and love those we meet and talk to.

For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
Phil 3:18-21

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Their destiny is destruction

Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.
For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
Phil 3:16-19

Paul is sharing about what he as achieved in Christ, though not perfect, he is pressing on.

His shares with great sorrow about believers who live a enemies of the cross of Christ.
He is contrasting his desire to follow Jesus with those who claim to know Christ yet live as enemies.
Their destiny is destruction.

Paul could be writing about non-believers but that would be pointless as obviously they are doomed to
destruction because of the very gospel and their sins. No, he is warning believers such a fate awaits them
is they make indulgence their god, and abandon the ways of God.

What is ironic, is those so trapped will ignore these words, sadly, but as a warning to His Sheep to listen
and stay faithful to the Lord, for His reward is sure to His people.

 

[Bingo]

"Amen.............'principles before personalities' often displays a worldly ego to impress,
let us love each, as all shall not be one of purpose in any age."
'Praise God'

 

[gb9]

# 91 582-585 are a perfect example of works salvationism..

we are saved by belief and faith in Christ. not by works of righteousness we have done, but by His mercy, He saved us. ( Titus 3 ).

people can bend and twist and be lead by pride all they want, they cannot nullify Scripture.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

# 91 582-585 are a perfect example of works salvationism..
we are saved by belief and faith in Christ. not by works of righteousness we have done, but by His mercy, He saved us. ( Titus 3 ).
people can bend and twist and be lead by pride all they want, they cannot nullify Scripture.

Thankyou gb9.
Are you happy to face the Lord while not being in His likeness?
Are you happy to ignore His words and instructions and expect to find mercy?

His sheep listen to Him, follow Him.
Do you want Jesus to accept you despite what you are not because of what He has made you?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Baptist and Brethren churches

Baptists were founded on the principle of having congregations of believers.
The brethren also were focused on only having believers in their communities.
The closed brethren only invited people who they chose to include.

One of the principles was pollution from the world and forms of living which were
thought to be evil and worldly.

Most evangelical groups have come out of these two groups with various emphasises.
Interestingly both these groups would be viewed as works salvationists by the "faith"
group. What is ironic is the baptist and brethren groups would describe themselves
as faith alone groups, with an emphasis on walking like Jesus.

If walking like Jesus is being a "works salvationist" then Amen, praise the Lord.

But this creates a dilemma when one changes the meaning of the language to represent
an extreme view of acceptance without the walk and purity spoken of in scripture.
That fact scripture is plain on these subjects is why people who do not read scripture often
fall for such a message without seeing it 100% compromises who they are meant to be.

 

[Hevosmies]

Baptist and Brethren churches

Baptists were founded on the principle of having congregations of believers.
The brethren also were focused on only having believers in their communities.
The closed brethren only invited people who they chose to include.

One of the principles was pollution from the world and forms of living which were
thought to be evil and worldly.

Most evangelical groups have come out of these two groups with various emphasises.
Interestingly both these groups would be viewed as works salvationists by the "faith"
group. What is ironic is the baptist and brethren groups would describe themselves
as faith alone groups, with an emphasis on walking like Jesus.

If walking like Jesus is being a "works salvationist" then Amen, praise the Lord.

But this creates a dilemma when one changes the meaning of the language to represent
an extreme view of acceptance without the walk and purity spoken of in scripture.
That fact scripture is plain on these subjects is why people who do not read scripture often
fall for such a message without seeing it 100% compromises who they are meant to be.

Here is the deal:

The sola fide, faith alone thats used by Lutherans, brethren and the baptists of the past DID NOT MEAN: Live like the devil and be saved

Their faith alone was different from the easy-believism of today. What they meant was: Once you are genuinely regenerated, you will produce fruit and God will work in you and chasten you, and at the end of the day you will be obeying, rather than disobeying God.

In fact: Lutherans came up with the faith alone idea, and they include even baptism as part of salvation, and still tout faith alone. Dont ask me why, I never understood why.

 

[50C1AL0N3]

Thankyou gb9.
Are you happy to face the Lord while not being in His likeness?
Are you happy to ignore His words and instructions and expect to find mercy?

His sheep listen to Him, follow Him.
Do you want Jesus to accept you despite what you are not because of what He has made you?

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin

 

[FollowHisSteps]

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:1-4

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13:10

Love fulfils the law. What we know is a defended heart, and how cautious we are
to do anything without getting hurt.

Paul saw in his life the Holy Spirit moving and fulfilling what God called him to.
It is always about becoming not trying, working through issues in Him and with Him
and not trying to be something just for the sake of it, which is meaningless.

 

[VCO]

Here is the deal:

The sola fide, faith alone thats used by Lutherans, brethren and the baptists of the past DID NOT MEAN: Live like the devil and be saved

Their faith alone was different from the easy-believism of today. What they meant was: Once you are genuinely regenerated, you will produce fruit and God will work in you and chasten you, and at the end of the day you will be obeying, rather than disobeying God.

In fact: Lutherans came up with the faith alone idea, and they include even baptism as part of salvation, and still tout faith alone. Dont ask me why, I never understood why.

Yep, that is a fact. I was born and raised a Lutheran.

 

[50C1AL0N3]

to trace the doctrine of justification by faith alone, the development of the system whereby man atones for his own sins must be considered first. Then it will be seen how the doctrine of justification by faith alone would rise in response to such a corrupt system. This corrupt system starts growing while the Apostles are still alive. Consider Paul's response to the initial corruption of the atoning work of Christ.
Paul defends the basis for the forgiveness of sin (c. 55)
Paul started a church in Galatia, where the teaching of justification by faith alone was clearly proclaimed and accepted. He taught one's only basis for the forgiveness of sins is faith in the merits of Christ's sacrificial death. After a time Paul received word this church had departed from its initial foundation. He was amazed at the early believers departure from the truth, and sent them a letter in an attempt to guide them back to the truth they initially received. This Paul states in the opening of his letter to the Galatians.

• I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel... (Gal 1:6)

This young church was being agitated by Judizers. These Judizers were actively trying to bring the Gentile Christians back under the law and into the fold of Judaism, and it appears they were successful. The Judizers were teaching that faith in Christ was needed for the forgiveness of sins, but it was not enough. They were teaching that circumcision was also needed. Paul proves the error of this false doctrine by showing God has never changed His method for forgiving sins. He uses the example of Abraham, whose faith was credited to him as righteousness. Paul references Genesis 15:6 when he writes the following.

• Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (Gal 3:6)

Paul was emphasizing that a person's only basis for salvation is in the merits of Christ. If one wants to add circumcision, almsgiving, baptism or anything else, Paul says Christ will then be of no profit to that person, and "he is a debtor to do the whole law," (Gal 5:3)
One may consider this a minor error to add things concerning righteousness to the gospel, but history shows this not to be the case. The problem is, once something is added room for something else can always be found. Paul knew of this danger and warns the Galatians by saying, "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (Gal 5:9) That is, accepting doctrinal error concerning how one is justified will cause one's whole doctrinal system to collapse. The doctrine of justification by faith alone gets so corrupted in the next few hundred years, it is essentially unrecognizable by 250 A.D. The shift started after the apostles. While some of the Apostolic Fathers give evidence they understood the doctrine of justification by faith alone, they certainly did not understand the need to fight for its purity.

 

[50C1AL0N3]

to trace the doctrine of justification by faith alone, the development of the system whereby man atones for his own sins must be considered first. Then it will be seen how the doctrine of justification by faith alone would rise in response to such a corrupt system. This corrupt system starts growing while the Apostles are still alive. Consider Paul's response to the initial corruption of the atoning work of Christ.
Paul defends the basis for the forgiveness of sin (c. 55)
Paul started a church in Galatia, where the teaching of justification by faith alone was clearly proclaimed and accepted. He taught one's only basis for the forgiveness of sins is faith in the merits of Christ's sacrificial death. After a time Paul received word this church had departed from its initial foundation. He was amazed at the early believers departure from the truth, and sent them a letter in an attempt to guide them back to the truth they initially received. This Paul states in the opening of his letter to the Galatians.

• I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel... (Gal 1:6)

This young church was being agitated by Judizers. These Judizers were actively trying to bring the Gentile Christians back under the law and into the fold of Judaism, and it appears they were successful. The Judizers were teaching that faith in Christ was needed for the forgiveness of sins, but it was not enough. They were teaching that circumcision was also needed. Paul proves the error of this false doctrine by showing God has never changed His method for forgiving sins. He uses the example of Abraham, whose faith was credited to him as righteousness. Paul references Genesis 15:6 when he writes the following.

• Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (Gal 3:6)

Paul was emphasizing that a person's only basis for salvation is in the merits of Christ. If one wants to add circumcision, almsgiving, baptism or anything else, Paul says Christ will then be of no profit to that person, and "he is a debtor to do the whole law," (Gal 5:3)
One may consider this a minor error to add things concerning righteousness to the gospel, but history shows this not to be the case. The problem is, once something is added room for something else can always be found. Paul knew of this danger and warns the Galatians by saying, "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (Gal 5:9) That is, accepting doctrinal error concerning how one is justified will cause one's whole doctrinal system to collapse. The doctrine of justification by faith alone gets so corrupted in the next few hundred years, it is essentially unrecognizable by 250 A.D. The shift started after the apostles. While some of the Apostolic Fathers give evidence they understood the doctrine of justification by faith alone, they certainly did not understand the need to fight for its purity.

 

[UnderGrace]

Then it will be seen how the doctrine of justification by faith alone would rise in response to such a corrupt system.

Not likely........ in fact not correct

The corrupt system was a response and direct attack upon the doctrine of justification by faith alone in Christ alone.

 

[Budman]

Here is the deal:

The sola fide, faith alone thats used by Lutherans, brethren and the baptists of the past DID NOT MEAN: Live like the devil and be saved

Their faith alone was different from the easy-believism of today. What they meant was: Once you are genuinely regenerated, you will produce fruit and God will work in you and chasten you, and at the end of the day you will be obeying, rather than disobeying God.

In fact: Lutherans came up with the faith alone idea, and they include even baptism as part of salvation, and still tout faith alone. Dont ask me why, I never understood why.

Does God override free will?

 

[Hevosmies]

Does God override free will?

Depends on who you ask. But the way you phrased your question leads me to believe you are going to argue that: "Obedience doesnt necessarily follow, since humans have free will." If im right:

Then you should be consistent in your view. If you believe in free will, you can will your way into salvation, you should be able to will your way out too.

 

[UnderGrace]

If you believe in free will, you can will your way into salvation,

Really, can a person will themselves to fly?

That is not what free means.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

to trace the doctrine of justification by faith alone, the development of the system whereby man atones for his own sins must be considered first. Then it will be seen how the doctrine of justification by faith alone would rise in response to such a corrupt system. This corrupt system starts growing while the Apostles are still alive. Consider Paul's response to the initial corruption of the atoning work of Christ.
Paul defends the basis for the forgiveness of sin (c. 55)
Paul started a church in Galatia, where the teaching of justification by faith alone was clearly proclaimed and accepted. He taught one's only basis for the forgiveness of sins is faith in the merits of Christ's sacrificial death. After a time Paul received word this church had departed from its initial foundation. He was amazed at the early believers departure from the truth, and sent them a letter in an attempt to guide them back to the truth they initially received. This Paul states in the opening of his letter to the Galatians.

• I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel... (Gal 1:6)

This young church was being agitated by Judizers. These Judizers were actively trying to bring the Gentile Christians back under the law and into the fold of Judaism, and it appears they were successful. The Judizers were teaching that faith in Christ was needed for the forgiveness of sins, but it was not enough. They were teaching that circumcision was also needed. Paul proves the error of this false doctrine by showing God has never changed His method for forgiving sins. He uses the example of Abraham, whose faith was credited to him as righteousness. Paul references Genesis 15:6 when he writes the following.

• Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (Gal 3:6)

Paul was emphasizing that a person's only basis for salvation is in the merits of Christ. If one wants to add circumcision, almsgiving, baptism or anything else, Paul says Christ will then be of no profit to that person, and "he is a debtor to do the whole law," (Gal 5:3)
One may consider this a minor error to add things concerning righteousness to the gospel, but history shows this not to be the case. The problem is, once something is added room for something else can always be found. Paul knew of this danger and warns the Galatians by saying, "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (Gal 5:9) That is, accepting doctrinal error concerning how one is justified will cause one's whole doctrinal system to collapse. The doctrine of justification by faith alone gets so corrupted in the next few hundred years, it is essentially unrecognizable by 250 A.D. The shift started after the apostles. While some of the Apostolic Fathers give evidence they understood the doctrine of justification by faith alone, they certainly did not understand the need to fight for its purity.

Certainly this is one view.
There is also another additional idea. Paul talks of love in the believer fulfilling the law.
He thought this fulfilled Jesus's statement of saying He did not come to destroy the law but fulfil it.
This has always been an odd concept. Was the atoning sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins without the
ability to walk righteously?

The reducing of the idea of sin and its consequences and the raising of morality of a human gave
rise to Preterism. This denies the problem of communion with God is the only thing that keeps
us whole and pure. And without God there is not ultimate purity.

God declared in the Holy Spirit, in abiding in Him can we fulfil walking like Jesus.
Jesus opened the door, but the fulfilment is in walking the path. Salvation is the walk,
that continues eternally.

As a kid I wondered why I agreed with Gods law, like it was something within me that asks of
God whether this was right. When God declares He has written on the hearts of His people His
law, it seems He was not kidding.

So because we are bound to the law of the Spirit, as slaves, there has never been an idea of
earning salvation, like it is external to who we are, rather it is who we are, one in Christ, bound
to the Holy one, desiring to find and walk in the Fathers will in all we do.

It is partly why theoretical models built on individual verses fail, because unless one is in the
Kingdom the words do not describe who one is, or even echo in ones life. Scripture is so odd,
it speaks at every level of our experience with Him, because it is living and is His word to us.