Not By Works

[FollowHisSteps]

Romans 8. I thought I posted this to you already, but maybe not. I have three dogs demanding attention this evening and is hard to keep focus.

The ISV states it as we are no longer under the control of our human nature but under the control of Holy Spirit if Messiah is within us. Our nature is changed by our new birth.

If God says we are dead to the nature of sin, then we put faith in His speaking truth that releases the power of Holy Spirit in our life.

That's the way of faith. It's a substance actually in the supernatural realm, when Father sees us exercising our trust in believing Him, (this substance) He is pleased and releases the end result of that trust. What we are asking for.

This is the obedience of faith.

In Hebrews 12 it there is speaking of endurance against sin. The desire is holiness. The truth is we are made Holy by the blood of the Lamb. We put our trust in this truth and resist temptation. Father sees that substance and empowers us through Holy Spirit and here is where the wonderful gift of our prayer language is our help.

The anointing of God is not only power, but enjoyment. Righteous living, being clean by the Word is peaceful, pleasurable....and the so called pleasures of the world spirit, or flesh cannot be compared.

Then....we have an enemy. And he lies. Who will we believe?

So the truth is...we are Spirit....greater with Him....then what we were in Adam. Flesh.

Which do you believe you are?

I can see how you get to your conclusion. But it is just that, a conclusion.
If it is possible to not stay in faith, to stumble, to be lost, then we are not spirit, we have a spirit.

Let me just pursue this idea. I have been transformed equally as yourself. So why do I disagree with
you, and find I can follow, love and fulfil in love the promise Jesus provides. And why do people hate
me so much, just declaring following is possible, not perfectly, not saying I have achieved being perfect
like Jesus, but following.

The reason is because it is a deception, and makes enemies from people who claim to know Jesus yet
refuse to follow, or listen to Him or know what continual repentance and grace really are.

The foundation of Jesus is simple. Do you love His commands? Do you see life in them?
Do they force you to face the need for cleansing within, and struggling with passions and direction?

If the answer is no, then you need to discover who Jesus is, and humble yourself before the cross.
There is no other way to enter heaven. The reality of who we are before Him is an eternal one,
and you are lost and blind unless you see this. It is why Jesus came, and submitted to death.
If you did not kill Jesus, then your sin cannot be atoned for. It is by recognising our sin, personally,
put Him there and He said, Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing, gives us
forgiveness, real, total forgiveness, so we can walk in His ways.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I am not disputing sacrifices, I am telling you for that verse you had the source of the blood wrong. You also said we do not have to study the Hebrew and the point I was trying to make was that if you understood the Hebrew you would have known you are making a mistake. The Hebrew (just like the English) is still relevant to us today.

For all the grammar nazis, sorry about the bad grammar. I am busy with work while trying to answer posts I think my wife has a point that men can't do two things at the same time.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You're a liar...I love the truth....and mainline Christianity has it all wrong...Dishonest people Fran have no weight when it comes to truth....formally banned members back pushing obedience to remain saved = deceit

Hi dcon,

"mainline Christianity has it all wrong"

Do you follow Jesus and His commands? Do you love "the way" He calls us to follow?

This is the real question.

Main line Christianity believes in obeying Jesus and desiring to walk as He walked.

Some hate this, so deeply, they are prepared to speak terrible things against the Lords people and
have no fear. It is this arrogance I wonder at, because the first lesson I learnt, from Job is this

Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his?
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low,
look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand
Job 40:8-12

I am a mere mortal before my creator. I know nothing, and He is willing to teach me.
His word is a light unto my feet, the way in the morning, daytime, evening and night.
I am just a servant, shown as unworthy yet given forgiveness and grace.

What is the real deception? Claiming to be orthodox believer upholding our walk of faith, or
actually teaching others to ignore the words of Jesus?

The joke is of course His sheep will ignore such ideas, and their hearts cry Halleluyah to Jesus's
declaration of salvation and victory through walking the way of obedience. Amen

 

[FollowHisSteps]

After all our postings, you don't yet see that disobedience is the sin of unbelief?
Obedience is to believe Gods Voice! Not the serpents voice, nor the voice of our own humanity.
This started in the garden. The Son of God finished it.
REST IN HIM!

"you don't yet see that disobedience is the sin of unbelief"

The above phrase comes from a very specific theology and view of sin, disobedience and unbelief.
sin - sinful actions are all forgiven for the whole world by Jesus's death
disobedience - obedience is not to the commands of Christ but to believing He is the Messiah,
so disobedience is interpreted as not believing He is the Messiah.
unbelief - without belief we do not have salvation, so it is the unforgivable sin.

This is the most contorted theology but it gets rid of 99% of scripture and its value.

It is no surprise people coming across this would not understand it, because its roots lie in
theology not scripture. It is why it is literally a heresy and another faith entirely.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Let the light shine

It is interesting to see charismatics linked to reformed conservatives believing in the
eternal spirit born again experience and thats it.

The common theme is not listening to or obeying Jesus.
The joke is I have faced such believers saying the Lord keeps His Sheep safe as their proof
text, not realising it denies their very theology and approach and disowns them entirely.

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28

The argument started, the mainline church are legalists, caught in obedience when they should
be into faith, and freedom. All you need is faith, and you are eternally saved.
Now the church became the enemy, and the enemy must be stamped out. We are His sheep so
we must be saved eternally, only the evil people would deny us eternal life.

But the problem is core to this theology, which is not new, but just dispensationalism with gnostic
ideas, is ignoring Jesus's words and commands.

Once you do not listen to Jesus or follow Him you are not His sheep.
If you are not His sheep, then you do not have eternal life, but are lost awaiting judgement.

What is also odd, is taking some words of Jesus as being right, and ignoring those that are difficult
as wrong. It is only sin and darkness that drives such logic. So what are you? A sheep willing
to listen to Jesus, or just a follower of any new compromise on salvation?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[mailmandan]

It means exactly what he says, and he says faith without works IS dead and CANNOT save anyone.
More proof you want?
Okay; James says even DEMONS believe and do something, they shudder!

That is proof that James is going against the faith alone doctrine.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which is like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works.

*James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Conviction of sin

Gods children have a conscience that gets convicted of sin which leads to repentance and restoration.

Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it--I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while--
yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
2 cor 7:8-10

Sorrow about our sinful behaviour and working towards a life of victory and love is the way in Christ.
Once people give up struggling they are accepting the ways of this world are the ways of eternity.

The cross promises us victory, transformation and to be able to walk like Jesus, but it takes real
faith and a real experience in Christ.

 

[gb9]

on and on about sin, all the while ignoring the definition of sin.

we should all be doing our best to walk just as He did, but if we do not acknowledge that we stumble and sometimes fall in that walk ( missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. ) is to live a lie and have a fake relationship with Him.

as bad as it is to lie to others, it is equally as bad ( if not worse ) to lie to ourselves.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Loving people through their difficulties

Jesus loves us and is prepared to reach out and help us no matter where we are.
But it is conditional on us accepting we need to repent and change and follow Him.

Some want Jesus to be there and nothing changes.
But this is like being with a hand grenade and the pin has been pulled awaiting to explode.
Either you leave the room or you die.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

on and on about sin, all the while ignoring the definition of sin.

we should all be doing our best to walk just as He did, but if we do not acknowledge that we stumble and sometimes fall in that walk ( missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. ) is to live a lie and have a fake relationship with Him.

as bad as it is to lie to others, it is equally as bad ( if not worse ) to lie to ourselves.

Amen. We are redeemed sinners, walking after Jesus, and yes we do stumble and sometimes fall.
I am not a sinless perfectionist, and it sounds like you agree we desire to walk as Jesus did, amen.

You maybe unaware others do not believe this or even that this is our calling.

 

[mailmandan]

Are you making a new analogy? We should be careful about doing that because it can be deceptive. Let's only use analogies from the Bible.

Do you believe that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith and we are saved by BOTH faith AND works? That is deceptive. Do you also believe that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree? It takes a living faith to produce works - made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved through faith FIRST, then UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) It also takes a living tree to produce fruit. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. You must not put the cart before the horse.

Right, because faith without a right action is dead and it cannot save.

So you believe that we are saved by faith + the right actions/works? So how many works does it take? How many works must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Do you believe that we saved by 90% faith and 10% works? Or maybe 50% faith and 50% works? *Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. *No supplements needed. (Romans 3:22-28)

...and even before faith of Abraham was mentions, Abraham OBEYING was mentioned.

In Genesis 12, we see that Abraham left his country to a land that God would show him, yet that is only part of the story and it was not until Genesis 15:5, AFTER God brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” *VERSE 6 - And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. *Just as we see in Romans 4:3 - “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” You seem determined to believe that salvation is based on the merits of obedience/works. Are you seeking personal credit and glory for salvation?

That is some mixed up stuff and sounds like you are avoiding saying that faith alone cannot save.

That is one of the severe problems with preaching faith alone...for one thing it is false, and for another thing, it makes one speak in turmoil about obeying, which should never be.
By the way, I don't go by Mr. Strong. He was biased in that he was taught his false doctrines too.

It only sounds mixed up to those who teach salvation by works. If what I explained to you in post #92,200 went right over your head, then it's because you teach salvation by works. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. When Paul uses the term "justified" he is using it in the legal (judicial) sense by which God accounts the believer as righteous, (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1) yet James is using the term "justified" to describe those who would show, exhibit, evidence, one to be righteous by the works that they do. (James 2:14-24)

*Remember, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).*

You still cannot seem to grasp the difference between an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works (James 2:14) and faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone and works follow as the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not as the essence of faith or as the means of salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

No such thing as faith alone saving anyone in the first place.

Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works saves (Ephesians 2:8,9). An empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" does not save. (James 2:14) Until you understand the difference and place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, you will remain on this merry go round of works salvation.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

on and on about sin, all the while ignoring the definition of sin.

we should all be doing our best to walk just as He did, but if we do not acknowledge that we stumble and sometimes fall in that walk ( missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. ) is to live a lie and have a fake relationship with Him.

as bad as it is to lie to others, it is equally as bad ( if not worse ) to lie to ourselves.

There is a fantastic point here. On and on about sin

When I speak to my brothers and sisters in Christ I rarely talk about sin, because we agree that sin is evil
and destructive and leads to death, and we should avoid such evil deeds and walk in the Spirit.
And we talk about scripture and blessings in Christ and what the Lord is doing in our lives.

Now here, where it would appear I am among believers, I am attacked like I am an enemy, told sin is
not dangerous or important, that the true saved are one way and I am another.
And at its core this group deny facing up to a sinful lifestyle and a rotten heart, listening to Jesus
and following Him

So unfortunately we have to talk about sin, conviction, repentance, faith in the cross and salvation.
Without a pure heart no one can see the truth in themselves or in others.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God
Matt 5:8

Without a pure heart we will never see God.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which is like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works.

*James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Hi mmd,

What you are saying is true. Faith can exist, yet the works it produces may not at first be obvious.
But let me suggest works are not just acts done like helping someone across the road, but also words of confession.
So faith that is silent, is no faith at all.

And this is a simple observation. Many claim faith, some are silent and do nothing when opportunity arises, so
their faith is dead. A live faith causes action, confession and change.

So if one possess a faith that has no action, confession or change it is dead.
It seems you want to suggest there is such a thing a faith that saves that has nothing else.
But this is by definition absurd, because it denies that as sinners redeemed we do not have to change
or be transformed into Christs likeness, we already are in His likeness or it is irrelevant.

But maybe this is just to excuse James away, and say faith is eternal and brings eternal life even when
people do nothing to show they have had any faith at all, they are still saved. That is so desperate.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus purifies us now. Jesus came and gave the NEW Covenant. The New Covenant has rules and guidelines too.

Hearts are purified by faith. (Acts 15:9) Are you seeking salvation based on the merits of your best efforts to follow rules and guidelines/works or through faith in Christ?

The Catholic church does not do what Jesus says; they make up other works that God does not command. We are not to call our brothers in Christ 'father'; we are not to have Mary intercede, only Jesus; we are not to bow to the works of our hands, etc.
So please don't compare what the Catholics do to what I say, for I preach obedience to Christ.

You are correct about the Catholic church. Obedience to Christ does not include salvation by works (John 6:28-29)

The church of Christ teaches other falseness such a saying a person cannot receive the Holy Spirit until a water baptism. So, I don't think you can disprove me about obedience by saying something from Campbell.

Cambellism teaches a 5 step false plan of salvation which culminates in water baptism for salvation. So where do you attend church?

Everything Jesus teaches is about how to love. If you don't obey what Jesus says, then how are we doing with that love?

Believers love because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) The love of God has been poured out within the hearts of believers through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)

Jesus gave us a new law; and, you misunderstand Paul when he says not of works of righteousness. Paul was speaking about the purification works of the law. Just look and see that 'circumcision' is spoken of when Paul says not of righteous works.

It's actually you who misunderstands and this is the same error that is made in Catholicism and Campbellism in an effort to "get around" verses like Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8,9 etc.. The end result is saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. The Bible clearly statess in Titus 3:5 that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, (Literally, "of works which are done in righteousness") and this passage fully refutes the false doctrine of meritorious works for salvation, yet you (just like Roman Catholics and Campbellites) try to explain it away in order to teach salvation by works. You are on very dangerous ground!

Paul tells the people to repent of their sins and have faith in Jesus! Paul NEVER EVER tells anyone to have faith only and be careful not to think that your repenting of your sins did anything.

Authentic faith is not without repentance and that is not what I mean by salvation through faith in Christ alone. Those who have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

One must be born from above to understand the word.....

Amen! 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

on and on about sin, all the while ignoring the definition of sin.

we should all be doing our best to walk just as He did, but if we do not acknowledge that we stumble and sometimes fall in that walk ( missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. ) is to live a lie and have a fake relationship with Him.

as bad as it is to lie to others, it is equally as bad ( if not worse ) to lie to ourselves.

amen...

Luke 5:31

“And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.”

 

[FollowHisSteps]

It truly amazes me to see how just about everything that I explain to you continues to go right over your head.
What irony.

Assumptions can invalidate what one is saying.
A flat earther is not difficult to understand, but their delusion and conviction does not mean that
we accept it. It can be explained very clearly, it is still nuts.

Jesus said if you follow His words you are building your house upon a rock. Why do some find
these words so hard to understand? Maybe because they do not believe them.

But if they do not believe them, they are not His sheep and so are not given eternal life and saved.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

One must be born from above to understand the word.....

This is so true. Without a pure heart the truth of Gods word cannot be seen.

It is no wonder those who deny Jesus's words and do not follow or obey Him, have no understanding
of what righteousness and purity actually are which is demonstrated by how they treat others.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:8-10

God bless you.