Not By Works

[BillG]

Yes, He will complete the work He started. That means "kept by the power of God through faith", but Bud teaches you can even stop believing and still be saved.

I would ask the question.
If he completes the work in us then does he leave such works unfinished?
Is it a promise or a threat?
If he promised it then it's not a threat but an obligation upon him as such.

Yes we are kept by the power of God through faith?
But who is doing the keeping?
Is it us or is it God?
After making a genuine confession of faith we have the Holy Spirit in us.
Is the Holy Spirit given to genuine believers at confession?
If so is not he who sustains and keeps us?

Jesus said that he would not lose anyone the Father has given him.
Therefore he knows that the Father will keep them and not lose them.
If he knows them, then surely he will keep them even when they stumble?

He doesn't keep the following.

Those who had some experience of Jesus but use it as a safety belt.
They use it as an excuse to sin, go their merry way with no regards to change.

When I think of Peter it is clear he denied Jesus.
When he did was there not unbelief when he did?

What about Thomas.
Wouldn't believe until he had seen.

Afterall he said he would die with him, never deny him.
Yet he did neither.
Yet Jesus said I have prayed for you and when you return.
So Jesus prayed to who? The Father. And the Father kept him and restored him.
Jesus is interceding in heaven for us.
Just as he did whilst on earth for the those that God had given him, those that he will not lose and raise up on the last day.

With regards to stop believing we all do that.
God says "Never will I leave you or forsake you"
If we don't believe that then we are not believing.
Jesus said that God loves us as much as he loves him.
If we don't believe it then we are not believing.

A person may have faith but can stop believing in the above examples, yet still maintain faith in Jesus.

I can't remember the words you used in a previous post.
Was it perseverance or preservation?

Two words that have different meanings, but to me can be interwoven.

 

[Macabeus]

I get fed up with people accusing fellow brothers/sisters on here teaching that we can sin all we want and still be saved.
They obviously mean sinning without regard.

So to such people who accuse either put up or shut up.
If anyone here does teach such a thing then they need to be bought to task.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone or throw it the floor.

Bill, you wrote this post thinking I falsely accused Bud, which I have proven I did not, and DC, who knows Bud said EXACTLY what I said he did, liked the post that insunuated that I had made a false accusation, when it has been demonstrated that I did not. And don't forget the part about no longer believing in Jesus and being saved, which Bud also said.

Makes me wonder about DC

 

[Macabeus]

is

I would ask the question.
If he completes the work in us then does he leave such works unfinished?
Is it a promise or a threat?
If he promised it then it's not a threat but an obligation upon him as such.

Yes we are kept by the power of God through faith?
But who is doing the keeping?
Is it us or is it God?
After making a genuine confession of faith we have the Holy Spirit in us.
Is the Holy Spirit given to genuine believers at confession?
If so is not he who sustains and keeps us?

Jesus said that he would not lose anyone the Father has given him.
Therefore he knows that the Father will keep them and not lose them.
If he knows them, then surely he will keep them even when they stumble?

He doesn't keep the following.

Those who had some experience of Jesus but use it as a safety belt.
They use it as an excuse to sin, go their merry way with no regards to change.

When I think of Peter it is clear he denied Jesus.
When he did was there not unbelief when he did?

What about Thomas.
Wouldn't believe until he had seen.

Afterall he said he would die with him, never deny him.
Yet he did neither.
Yet Jesus said I have prayed for you and when you return.
So Jesus prayed to who? The Father. And the Father kept him and restored him.
Jesus is interceding in heaven for us.
Just as he did whilst on earth for the those that God had given him, those that he will not lose and raise up on the last day.

With regards to stop believing we all do that.
God says "Never will I leave you or forsake you"
If we don't believe that then we are not believing.
Jesus said that God loves us as much as he loves him.
If we don't believe it then we are not believing.

A person may have faith but can stop believing in the above examples, yet still maintain faith in Jesus.

I can't remember the words you used in a previous post.
Was it perseverance or preservation?

Two words that have different meanings, but to me can be interwoven.

You stopped believing in Jesus?

I can't believe you are defending a position that says we can sin all we want in the flesh and our new nature is sinless, and that says that the verse in 1 John 3:9 is not talking about a believer's walk, but about the new nature only.

Budman post 645- Faith/works; How much faith, how much works
Yet again, Romans 7:14-25. Paul describes both natures and the war between them. And 1 John 3:9 talks of the New Nature in Christ that does not sin nor can sin.

(partial quote)

Put the two together...

a. the new nature is sinless.

b. But the believer can sin in the flesh all he or she wants.

Classic antinomianism.

The correct interpretation of 1 John 3:9 is that a believer will not practice, persist, preservere in their sins, in agreement with Romans 6:1 and in agreement with what Jesus said in Matthew 5 when He told the man "Go and sin no more"

 

[Macabeus]

BTW, I started a new forum on "does OSAS teach that a person can sin all they want" We can take it over there, if you guys want to continue

 

[theanointedwinner]

Avoid all extremes (ecc 7:18)

These three wisest words can help us on debate forums

 

[BillG]

Bill, you wrote this post thinking I falsely accused Bud, which I have proven I did not, and DC, who knows Bud said EXACTLY what I said he did, liked the post that insunuated that I had made a false accusation, when it has been demonstrated that I did not. And don't forget the part about no longer believing in Jesus and being saved, which Bud also said.

Makes me wonder about DC

Hi M (hope you don't mind me calling you M, it's just that I can't remember how to spell your name you have)

Just so you know my post was not directed at you specifically.
I addressed your comment about that there are people on here who says that we can sin all we want and still be saved.

You then asked me to look at another thread and mentioned Bud & DC.
FHS agreed with you and added to it.

I don't know how long you have been here but there have been many a person on this site who have accused people of believing that we can sin all we want and still be saved. But what they are really saying is that we believe we can use grace as a license to sin and still be saved.

For me that is not true, it's abhorrent.
And to accuse another in Christ of saying that is the same.

To be honest I can't see you as having falsley accusing Bud of saying that we can sin all we want and be saved (and by this I'm referring to Romans 5-6) but I gave my understanding of what I think he was trying to convey in another response he gave to you, and I posted that response with my thoughts.

But you did use him as an example to prove your point.

It's interesting that you interpret something differently than I do.
I wonder why?

In my life as a believer I have only ever come across two believers who have said "Its ok God knows I will sin and will forgive me when I do"

So they committed said sins.
It distressed me and made my blood boil.

As I said such behaviour is abbhorent and should be addressed.
When addressed and no willingness to change then hand it over God.

Just a side note, if someone struggles with a sin pattern we need to come alongside and allow God to use us to bring healing and help.

God bless you bro

 

[BillG]

BTW, I started a new forum on "does OSAS teach that a person can sin all they want" We can take it over there, if you guys want to continue

That saves me from asking what you believe OSAS means to you.
Not looked at it yet.
Have you addressed this in your OP?

 

[BillG]

You stopped believing in Jesus?

I can't believe you are defending a position that says we can sin all we want in the flesh and our new nature is sinless, and that says that the verse in 1 John 3:9 is not talking about a believer's walk, but about the new nature only.

Now you have done to me what you accuse others off.

Read my post and try to hear what I'm saying.

I am and have not said or defended that we can sin all we want and still be saved.
Quote me where I did.

Why have you asked me if I have stopped believing in Jesus?
Never said that.
What I did say is that at times we do not believe, and my reference was that it doesn't mean we have lost our faith in Jesus but do not believe what he had said.

Do you believe that God loves us as much as Jesus?
If you don't then you do not believe him.
That was my example I gave.

That is different from beleiving in him.

My example is a biggy because there are many who do not believe it.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am seeing this more with understanding as I was reading 1 John this morning...
It is so comforting to know that we can come to God with our confession , knowing Jesus is constantly cleansing us and washing us clean..

There was lots of gems this morning as I was reading 1 John , how when we have doubts or insecurities about our faith , God comes and reassures us that when our heart condemns us , He knows His children , and He through His Holy Spirit comforts us , I found real comfort in that...xox...

1st john is an excellent book....well....they all are, but John really knows how to describe our relationship with God.....this is the victory that overcomes the world....EVEN OUR FAITH........<---Christ is the source of that faith and he abides faithful even when we are faithless......think about that TRUTH..............how any times are men and women faithless.....

Peter was FAITHLESS when he began to sink......!!!!! Now apply the principle of what is actually being said......

 

[dcontroversal]

I am still amazed at how many blather on while using James as proof text of the loss of salvation and or using the description of a dead faith <----a mere belief in God to describe salvation........CONTEXT means jack to these peddlers of a salvation that can be lost or is maintained by works.......makes me want to puke

 

[dcontroversal]

Nice to see Timothy yank out of context to peddle a losable salvation ........

Peter denied the Lord three times and never lost salvation................CONTEXT is like a penny that no one hardly picks up off the street......

GEESH.....................the context is DENYING WHO HE IS AND WHAT HE DONE <--------UNBELIEF into the WORK of CHRIST for salvation......NOT being saved and then LOSING IT for a moment of DENIAL like PETER.....You guys take the cake......

 

[Rosemaryx]

1st john is an excellent book....well....they all are, but John really knows how to describe our relationship with God.....this is the victory that overcomes the world....EVEN OUR FAITH........<---Christ is the source of that faith and he abides faithful even when we are faithless......think about that TRUTH..............how any times are men and women faithless.....

Peter was FAITHLESS when he began to sink......!!!!! Now apply the principle of what is actually being said......

I agree...

And I also got the full understanding of what it means when they went out from us , they were never in Christ to begin with , like someone can only hold a mask on themselves before it will finally slip , it has nothing to do with true children of God falling away , they were nothing but wolves , the same as today...xox...

 

[dcontroversal]

I would ask the question.
If he completes the work in us then does he leave such works unfinished?
Is it a promise or a threat?
If he promised it then it's not a threat but an obligation upon him as such.

Yes we are kept by the power of God through faith?
But who is doing the keeping?
Is it us or is it God?
After making a genuine confession of faith we have the Holy Spirit in us.
Is the Holy Spirit given to genuine believers at confession?
If so is not he who sustains and keeps us?

Jesus said that he would not lose anyone the Father has given him.
Therefore he knows that the Father will keep them and not lose them.
If he knows them, then surely he will keep them even when they stumble?

He doesn't keep the following.

Those who had some experience of Jesus but use it as a safety belt.
They use it as an excuse to sin, go their merry way with no regards to change.

When I think of Peter it is clear he denied Jesus.
When he did was there not unbelief when he did?

What about Thomas.
Wouldn't believe until he had seen.

Afterall he said he would die with him, never deny him.
Yet he did neither.
Yet Jesus said I have prayed for you and when you return.
So Jesus prayed to who? The Father. And the Father kept him and restored him.
Jesus is interceding in heaven for us.
Just as he did whilst on earth for the those that God had given him, those that he will not lose and raise up on the last day.

With regards to stop believing we all do that.
God says "Never will I leave you or forsake you"
If we don't believe that then we are not believing.
Jesus said that God loves us as much as he loves him.
If we don't believe it then we are not believing.

A person may have faith but can stop believing in the above examples, yet still maintain faith in Jesus.

I can't remember the words you used in a previous post.
Was it perseverance or preservation?

Two words that have different meanings, but to me can be interwoven.

You already know the answer Bill........the following states it all.....those that peddle a salvation that can be lost.....are not of GOD.....

The following is a comparison between the bible and salvation losers......and make no mistake...this is exactly what they peddle and or how they butcher the word of God by their losable salvation....

Bible --> I will never leave thee or forsake thee
Salvation Losers ---->Jesus is a liar and will leave us and forsake us

Bible --->We are saved to the uttermost and kept by the power of God through faith
Salvation losers --->The power of God is weak and inept, we are not saved to the uttermost and GOD does not keep us

Bible -->Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us
Salvation losers ---> WE must maintain our faith because JESUS does not finish and complete the work of faith in us

Bible --> He that believes on the SON is having everlasting/eternal life
Salvation losers --->He that believes and MAINTAINS his belief on the SON is having temporal life based upon what he does or does not do

Bible --> Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law
Salvation losers -->James out of context tells us we are justified by our works before God

Bible -->It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
Salvation losers --->It pleased God by works, church membership, baptism, pew jumping, speaking in tongues, back flipping down the isle, saying 57 hail Mary's, taking the Lord's supper, keeping the sacraments and a dozen other religiously zealous man made efforts to save them

Bible -->NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD
Salvation losers -->Numerous things can separate us from the love of GOD

Bible--->We are in the Son's hand, the Father's hand and NO AN can remove us from that position
Salvation losers -->The above is false, we can remove ourselves because God is weak and inept

Bible -->We are sealed unto the day of redemption
Salvation losers-->The seal of God can be broken because God is weak and inept

Bible --->Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more
Salvation losers--> We qualify, quantify sin and God's grace only covers those small sins when we mess up and for sure we have never lost it, but eternal security believers lose it because they believe they can live any way they want and live like the devil

Bible --->He that believes on the Son is not condemned
Salvation losers --> Believers are condemned all the time and returned to being goats after becoming sheep

Bible --> I will lose nothing, but raise it up the last day
Salvation losers -->God loses people all the time because he is too weak to keep them saved

Bible--> We are born again from above by INCORRUPTIBLE SEED
Salvation losers --> We are not born of incorruptible seed, because that seed can be corrupted and one die lost after being born again

Bible --> The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable
Salvation losers -->God's free GIFT of salvation can be revoked because GOD will break ALL the above promises and send one to hell after being saved

ETC.............I dare to say that salvation losers are false.....and what they peddle is not of GOD and as blasphemous as it comes......the above is a SMALL sample of scriptural promises that MUST BE DENIED, REJECTED and or SWEPT UNDER THE TABLE to peddle a dime store salvation that cannot be found in the bible and or a dime store salvation that devalues the work, promises and ministry of CHRIST!!!!!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree...

And I also got the full understanding of what it means when they went out from us , they were never in Christ to begin with , like someone can only hold a mask on themselves before it will finally slip , it has nothing to do with true children of God falling away , they were nothing but wolves , the same as today...xox...

Exactly................keep swinging Rose...........the deceivers are rank and file deep......

 

[UnderGrace]

@Macabeus

Does OSAS mean that we can sin all we want and even stop believing in Jesus and still be saved? Because I ran into some who support and or defend this view

God took all my sins..... past, present and future upon His Son

Our salvation is based on a singular belief event that places us in Christ....What God's Son did for me was sufficient to absolve me of my sin debt once I believed forever and eternally

End of story!

Your question really is a poor attempt of putting salvation in human hands ....this whole "still be saved" what is that??

We are placed in Christ and Christ is placed in us by His Holy Spirit when we are regenerated

This question is like asking why does.......... zero minus three = ten

Why do people always try to argue this, so nonsensical, illogical and sad

 

[dcontroversal]

@Macabeus

Does OSAS mean that we can sin all we want and even stop believing in Jesus and still be saved? Because I ran into some who support and or defend this view

God took all my sins..... past, present and future upon His Son

Our salvation is based on a singular belief event that places us in Christ....What God's Son did for me was sufficient to absolve me of my sin debt once I believed forever and eternally

End of story!

Your question really is a poor attempt of putting salvation in human hands ....this whole "still be saved" what is that??

We are placed in Christ and Christ is placed in us by His Holy Spirit when we are regenerated

This question is like asking why does.......... zero minus three = ten

Why do people always try to argue this, so nonsensical, illogical and sad

AMEN......SIN is not the issue......and even being faithless after salvation is not the issue....BOTH are covered by Christ and a plethora of scripture............I will say it again ---> ALL that peddle a losable salvation or a salvation maintained by MAN are not LED of GOD

 

[longtrekker]

Street lights, don't stop believing - journey

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That only works if u live in south Detroit tho...

 

[dcontroversal]

.
That only works if u live in south Detroit tho...

HAHAHHA so true....Born and Raised in South Detroit HAH

 

[Limey410v2]

If we are faithless he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself <--written by PAUL to Timothy, both saved and both included....no one can ever convince me based upon that verse and a few others that a an can lose faith to the point of losing salvation.......

Christ BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the work of faith in us and it is the faith of or from Christ that saves us......

Amen, if one believes and is saved, there is no reversal. Salvation is eternal existence with God forever. From the moment we truly accept His free gift. The circumstances of our lives may change drastically, but the true nature of God does not. He promises to never leave nor forsake us, based on His finished work, not on our future accomplishments or failures. It is ALL about Him.

 

[longtrekker]

HAHAHHA so true....Born and Raised in South Detroit HAH

.
Gotta love the 'classics' !