Not By Works

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Dec 27, 2018
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The focus seems to be sin. Our focus in the New Covenant is Him (the Holy Spirit). Sin is no longer an issue between man and God, it was resolved on the cross. Our unrelenting focus on sin is what the other gospel is all about. If we are sitting around focusing on sin, we are not focused on the one that forgave sin. The main problem with the church today is it has become a behavioral modification program, where no one ever is right with God. That's a bunch of fooey. Sin is SOOOO evil, it took the death of God on the cross to resolve it. That was done 2000 years ago, and we had zero choice in that. We do however get to accept the free gift of the Spirit that can dwell within us as a result of that. Paul tells us to live in the Spirit, that is my focus. Sin is not. As I live in relationship with Him I probably sin less, but sin is not my concern, it WAS Gods, and I beleive Him when He said He won victory over it, for us. When I sin, I fully understand and am truly grateful that I am forgiven, and I thank him for his Grace and mercy 😎🙂
No the focus is not on sin. Any more than the focus of the book of Romans was on sin. But count the times Paul said sin in Romans 6-8. The focus is on FREEDOM FROM SIN.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Why don't you read below and find out what the doctrine teaches and then you won't get sick when you hear it.

These are statements of men who believe in the wholesome doctrine of "perserverance of the saints'

The infinite, mysterious, eternal love of God for his people is a guarantee that they can never be lost. Loraine Boettner (believed in the doctrine of perserverance)

God hath given this charge to Christ, that whomsoever he elected, Christ should preserve them safe, to bring them to heaven. Christopher Love (believed in the doctrine of perserverance)

Did Christ finish his work for us? Then … he will also finish his work in us. John Flavel (believed in the doctrine of perserverance)

An inheritance is not only kept for us, but we are kept for it. Richard Sibbes (believed in the doctrine of perserverance)

God, by the exercise of his grace . . . infallibly prevents even the weakest saint from final apostasy. Loraine Boettner (beiieved in the doctrine of perserverance. )

Yeah, these guys believe we keep ourselves. .:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
Perseverance of the saints is temporal....our salvation is an eternal decree

Two opposite concepts
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Exactly, why do I need a doctrine not explicitly taught in scripture.

There is no "truly" saved in scripture ....one is either saved or not...no need for modifiers
You sure about that?

1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that an antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They left us, but they were not part of us, for if they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Their leaving made it clear that none of them was really part of us.

If there are false converts, then there are certainly genuine converts. ;)
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Exactly, why do I need a doctrine not explicitly taught in scripture.

There is no "truly" saved in scripture ....one is either saved or not...no need for modifiers
True...We are either a child of God , or a child of satan , there is no inbetween...xox...
 

Limey410v2

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2017
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Amen Bro amen Bro.

To focus on sin leads to doing. Rather being.
Being the child of our Father.
As we focus on being then we sin less.

Great post Limey
Yes Paul writes that he didn't know what is meant to covet, until the law told him not too.
No the focus is not on sin. Any more than the focus of the book of Romans was on sin. But count the times Paul said sin in Romans 6-8. The focus is on FREEDOM FROM SIN.
Freedom from theconsequence of sin, which under the Law was death.
No the focus is not on sin. Any more than the focus of the book of Romans was on sin. But count the times Paul said sin in Romans 6-8. The focus is on FREEDOM FROM SIN.
The law of sin and death is what we now have freedom from. If your sin was fully and completely forgiven on the cross, then you are now free from the eternal consequence of sin as prescribed by the law, which was death. The action of sin no longer condemns you as you are in Christ and He was the perfect and complete sacrifice for it. Now go live with the Spirit of God that dwells in you. That is the New Covenant of God under which I now live.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You sure about that?

1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that an antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They left us, but they were not part of us, for if they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Their leaving made it clear that none of them was really part of us.

If there are false converts, then there are certainly genuine converts. ;)
umm......LOL "converts" is a different concept....saved is saved....no need for truly
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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The focus seems to be sin. Our focus in the New Covenant is Him (the Holy Spirit). Sin is no longer an issue between man and God, it was resolved on the cross. Our unrelenting focus on sin is what the other gospel is all about. If we are sitting around focusing on sin, we are not focused on the one that forgave sin. The main problem with the church today is it has become a behavioral modification program, where no one ever is right with God. That's a bunch of fooey. Sin is SOOOO evil, it took the death of God on the cross to resolve it. That was done 2000 years ago, and we had zero choice in that. We do however get to accept the free gift of the Spirit that can dwell within us as a result of that. Paul tells us to live in the Spirit, that is my focus. Sin is not. As I live in relationship with Him I probably sin less, but sin is not my concern, it WAS Gods, and I beleive Him when He said He won victory over it, for us. When I sin, I fully understand and am truly grateful that I am forgiven, and I thank him for his Grace and mercy 😎🙂
AMEN...........SIN is not the issue....FAITH is........but hey......religionists and self savers or maintainers MUST make a big deal of sin...........just like the Pharisees
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Yes Paul writes that he didn't know what is meant to covet, until the law told him not too.
Freedom from theconsequence of sin, which under the Law was death.
The law of sin and death is what we now have freedom from. If your sin was fully and completely forgiven on the cross, then you are now free from the eternal consequence of sin as prescribed by the law, which was death. The action of sin no longer condemns you as you are in Christ and He was the perfect and complete sacrifice for it. Now go live with the Spirit of God that dwells in you. That is the New Covenant of God under which I now live.
NO, we are also FREE FROM THE DOMINION OF SIN. (caps for emphasis, not yelling.)

Romans 6:14- For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:11- Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:16-Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You are either a servant of God or a servant of sin. Since we are bought with a price, redeemed, we are no longer slaves to sin, and should no longer yield to it by walking in the old nature instead of walking In the new nature

That is what is wrong with some people's brand of OSAS. They say the New Nature is sinless, but' then say that they can sin as much as they want. But that would be yielding to the old nature. We are not servants to the Old Nature anymore. We are servants of Christ. We are bought with a price and therefore are called to glorify Him in our body and spirit, WHICH ARE HIS
 
Dec 27, 2018
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AMEN...........SIN is not the issue....FAITH is........but hey......religionists and self savers or maintainers MUST make a big deal of sin...........just like the Pharisees
Paul thinks both are an issue...

Romans 6:1-2-
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6- Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:11- Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:12-Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:14

And dozens more...

John thought it was an issue

1 John 3:6- Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:8- He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(I hope you guys read my post about the present continuous and or ititerative tense so you won't keep asking "do you ever sin" which totally misses the point of what I am saying)

Etcetera
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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I see the new resident salvation loser and JEEZUS helper has arrived......he helps JEEZUS keep himself saved.......!!!! He cannot biblically respond to the following except with zzzz or some other flippant remark.....

The following is a comparison between the bible and salvation losers......and make no mistake...this is exactly what they peddle and or how they butcher the word of God by their losable salvation....

Bible --> I will never leave thee or forsake thee
Salvation Losers ---->Jesus is a liar and will leave us and forsake us

Bible --->We are saved to the uttermost and kept by the power of God through faith
Salvation losers --->The power of God is weak and inept, we are not saved to the uttermost and GOD does not keep us

Bible -->Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us
Salvation losers ---> WE must maintain our faith because JESUS does not finish and complete the work of faith in us

Bible --> He that believes on the SON is having everlasting/eternal life
Salvation losers --->He that believes and MAINTAINS his belief on the SON is having temporal life based upon what he does or does not do

Bible --> Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law
Salvation losers -->James out of context tells us we are justified by our works before God

Bible -->It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
Salvation losers --->It pleased God by works, church membership, baptism, pew jumping, speaking in tongues, back flipping down the isle, saying 57 hail Mary's, taking the Lord's supper, keeping the sacraments and a dozen other religiously zealous man made efforts to save them

Bible -->NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD
Salvation losers -->Numerous things can separate us from the love of GOD

Bible--->We are in the Son's hand, the Father's hand and NO AN can remove us from that position
Salvation losers -->The above is false, we can remove ourselves because God is weak and inept

Bible -->We are sealed unto the day of redemption
Salvation losers-->The seal of God can be broken because God is weak and inept

Bible --->
Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more
Salvation losers--> We qualify, quantify sin and God's grace only covers those small sins when we mess up and for sure we have never lost it, but eternal security believers lose it because they believe they can live any way they want and live like the devil

Bible --->He that believes on the Son is not condemned
Salvation losers --> Believers are condemned all the time and returned to being goats after becoming sheep

Bible --> I will lose nothing, but raise it up the last day
Salvation losers -->God loses people all the time because he is too weak to keep them saved

Bible--> We are born again from above by INCORRUPTIBLE SEED
Salvation losers --> We are not born of incorruptible seed, because that seed can be corrupted and one die lost after being born again

Bible --> The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable
Salvation losers -->God's free GIFT of salvation can be revoked because GOD will break ALL the above promises and send one to hell after being saved

ETC.............I dare to say that salvation losers are false.....and what they peddle is not of GOD and as blasphemous as it comes......the above is a SMALL sample of scriptural promises that MUST BE DENIED, REJECTED and or SWEPT UNDER THE TABLE to peddle a dime store salvation that cannot be found in the bible and or a dime store salvation that devalues the work, promises and ministry of CHRIST!!!!!!!
 
Dec 27, 2018
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,
I see the new resident salvation loser and JEEZUS helper has arrived......he helps JEEZUS keep himself saved.......!!!! He cannot biblically respond to the following except with zzzz or some other flippant remark.....

The following is a comparison between the bible and salvation losers......and make no mistake...this is exactly what they peddle and or how they butcher the word of God by their losable salvation....

Bible --> I will never leave thee or forsake thee
Salvation Losers ---->Jesus is a liar and will leave us and forsake us

Bible --->We are saved to the uttermost and kept by the power of God through faith
Salvation losers --->The power of God is weak and inept, we are not saved to the uttermost and GOD does not keep us

Bible -->Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us
Salvation losers ---> WE must maintain our faith because JESUS does not finish and complete the work of faith in us

Bible --> He that believes on the SON is having everlasting/eternal life
Salvation losers --->He that believes and MAINTAINS his belief on the SON is having temporal life based upon what he does or does not do

Bible --> Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law
Salvation losers -->James out of context tells us we are justified by our works before God

Bible -->It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
Salvation losers --->It pleased God by works, church membership, baptism, pew jumping, speaking in tongues, back flipping down the isle, saying 57 hail Mary's, taking the Lord's supper, keeping the sacraments and a dozen other religiously zealous man made efforts to save them

Bible -->NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD
Salvation losers -->Numerous things can separate us from the love of GOD

Bible--->We are in the Son's hand, the Father's hand and NO AN can remove us from that position
Salvation losers -->The above is false, we can remove ourselves because God is weak and inept

Bible -->We are sealed unto the day of redemption
Salvation losers-->The seal of God can be broken because God is weak and inept

Bible --->Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more
Salvation losers--> We qualify, quantify sin and God's grace only covers those small sins when we mess up and for sure we have never lost it, but eternal security believers lose it because they believe they can live any way they want and live like the devil

Bible --->He that believes on the Son is not condemned
Salvation losers --> Believers are condemned all the time and returned to being goats after becoming sheep

Bible --> I will lose nothing, but raise it up the last day
Salvation losers -->God loses people all the time because he is too weak to keep them saved

Bible--> We are born again from above by INCORRUPTIBLE SEED
Salvation losers --> We are not born of incorruptible seed, because that seed can be corrupted and one die lost after being born again

Bible --> The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable
Salvation losers -->God's free GIFT of salvation can be revoked because GOD will break ALL the above promises and send one to hell after being saved

ETC.............I dare to say that salvation losers are false.....and what they peddle is not of GOD and as blasphemous as it comes......the above is a SMALL sample of scriptural promises that MUST BE DENIED, REJECTED and or SWEPT UNDER THE TABLE to peddle a dime store salvation that cannot be found in the bible and or a dime store salvation that devalues the work, promises and ministry of CHRIST!!!!!!!
I hope you're not referring to me after what I posted in post 99,539
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
what is the difference between a convert and a saved person? Can a person be saved without being converted?
I agree that we can use modifier to describe a "false" convert, however I see "saved" as "saved", regenerated as regenerated, converted as converted

No need for the extra modifier on the positive side since saved and converted already mean saved or converted.
One is not more saved by stating "genuinely" saved
That's all.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,434
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Paul thinks both are an issue...

Romans 6:1-2-
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6- Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:11- Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:12-Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:14

And dozens more...

John thought it was an issue

1 John 3:6- Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:8- He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(I hope you guys read my post about the present continuous and or ititerative tense so you won't keep asking "do you ever sin" which totally misses the point of what I am saying)

Etcetera
Take two seconds to actually comprehend what the context of what we are talking about Macaroni..........I will say it again....SIN is not the issue....FAITH IS.......use your brain!
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Since this thread is about "not of works", why don't you all move it over to the "does OSAS teach a Christian can sin as much as they want", and interact with people that actually have the issue of "the security of the believer" right.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I agree that we can use modifier to describe a "false" convert, however I see "saved" as "saved", regenerated as regenerated, converted as converted

No need for the extra modifier on the positive side since saved and converted already mean saved or converted.
One is not more saved by stating "genuinely" saved
That's all.
That is the silliest strawman I ever heard.

There are those who think that they are saved and are not (false converts) and there are those who know that they are saved and truly are (true converts). And being a true convert does not make you more saved, it makes you saved.

You are really clutching straws and making strawmen
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
.God’s decree is the very pillar … on which the saints’ perseverance depends. Thomas Watson;)
You can promote "perseverance" all you want, but salvation is a finished work based on the fact that all sin was dealt with at the cross, past, present and future.

His work on my behalf, not my perseverance is completely sufficient to save