Not By Works

[BillG]

I would agree he does not directly teach it the way some on here have taught sinless perfectionism ....however I have heard him speak where he has argued the unredeemed flesh is the physical body and so he states this is where sin remains until we die not that we have an old nature.

"Christians sin because of the vestiges of sinful flesh, not because they have the same old active sinful nature" (Faith Works, p. 116).

I still don't get it.
I really gets me down that I don't get it.
It's the Romans 7? Is this about it?

Are we talking dual nature here?

I know the words used which is translated as nature and flesh (in different bibles) is the Greek word Sarx which is basically flesh.

I relate to Paul in Romans 7.
But really don't get the flesh bit.

For me if I'm honest when I sin I think it's my old nature that mainfests itself in the flesh and yet I hate it, which is my new nature.

So I suppose I'm entranched in thinking that I have a dual nature whilst on earth.

It really does my head in.
I'm at the point of giving up trying to get it, been like that for years but every time it comes up it grabs my attention.

@dcontroversal please do not read the above. I can see you with your head in your hands and shaking it, and then reaching out to grab me by shirt collar and shout "What part of this do you not get?

Oops too late you have already read it.
I'm going into hiding.
Only joking bro, I love my brother from another mother.

Right who wants to play hide and seek.
I'll hide and you seek.

 

[BillG]

Sorry UG

 

[Rosemaryx]

Yes he uses unredeemed flesh, however that is not the old nature, MacArthur teaches the old nature is gone with regeneration.

MacArthur is well known for changing positions and stating things and then having to retract like stating that the blood of Jesus does not save and that people can take the mark of the beast and still be saved.

I would agree he does not directly teach it the way some on here have taught sinless perfectionism ....however I have heard him speak where he has argued the unredeemed flesh is the physical body and so he states this is where sin remains until we die not that we have an old nature.

"Christians sin because of the vestiges of sinful flesh, not because they have the same old active sinful nature" (Faith Works, p. 116).

Many would dispute this with him.....however he has had to find a way to make it work with scripture and still hold to one nature that is being progressively sanctified. (this teaching is wrong)

He does not really believe in eternal security because in his teaching the person who is not a slave to rightousness was never really saved. (works salvation)

He does not in any way teach works , he clearly states
Ephesians 2:8-9...Never does he or has he taught that...
Maybe you should look at Grace to you testimony of what his church believe , he definitely believes in eternal security...xox...

 

[Rosemaryx]

He does not in any way teach works , he clearly states
Ephesians 2:8-9...Never does he or has he taught that...
Maybe you should look at Grace to you testimony of what his church believe , he definitely believes in eternal security...xox...

Sorry about the big writing lol , I know you can see fine

 

[calibob]

Yes he uses unredeemed flesh, however that is not the old nature, MacArthur teaches the old nature is gone with regeneration.

MacArthur is well known for changing positions and stating things and then having to retract like stating that the blood of Jesus does not save and that people can take the mark of the beast and still be saved.

I would agree he does not directly teach it the way some on here have taught sinless perfectionism ....however I have heard him speak where he has argued the unredeemed flesh is the physical body and so he states this is where sin remains until we die not that we have an old nature.

"Christians sin because of the vestiges of sinful flesh, not because they have the same old active sinful nature" (Faith Works, p. 116).

Many would dispute this with him.....however he has had to find a way to make it work with scripture and still hold to one nature that is being progressively sanctified. (this teaching is wrong)

He does not really believe in eternal security because in his teaching the person who is not a slave to rightousness was never really saved. (works salvation)

Furthermore his; "Christians should be still and just pray for corrupt leaders" but do nothing about them because all leaders are ordained by God sickens me. Some of my heroes were beaten, stoned, and crucified. They believe Paul was beheaded! Don't just bow and take it. The curse of protest and resistance is the curse of the law, not of God. The law says cursed is he that hangs from a tree. Jesus said In the garden;
N I V; Luke 22:36
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one!" does that sound like be still and take it?

We don't have to obey every tyrant or fool that becomes a leader, if we are willing to accept the consequences. Only fools think they can get out of life alive!

Acts 9:28
"And he (Saul/Paul) was with them, moving about freely in Jerusalem, speaking out boldly in the name of the Lord."

The Antichrist would love us to be still and take it. That doctrine is a trick for those who can't comprehend the meaning of the full Gospel!

 

[dcontroversal]

We are no longer salt....We no longer work against putrefaction.

Oh I agree......you know...funny thing....i get raked over the coals by people on this site for being rough, gruff, straight forward etc.....and yet God has used me to reach million...

I still don't get it.
I really gets me down that I don't get it.
It's the Romans 7? Is this about it?

Are we talking dual nature here?

I know the words used which is translated as nature and flesh (in different bibles) is the Greek word Sarx which is basically flesh.

I relate to Paul in Romans 7.
But really don't get the flesh bit.

For me if I'm honest when I sin I think it's my old nature that mainfests itself in the flesh and yet I hate it, which is my new nature.

So I suppose I'm entranched in thinking that I have a dual nature whilst on earth.

It really does my head in.
I'm at the point of giving up trying to get it, been like that for years but every time it comes up it grabs my attention.

@dcontroversal please do not read the above. I can see you with your head in your hands and shaking it, and then reaching out to grab me by shirt collar and shout "What part of this do you not get?

Oops too late you have already read it.
I'm going into hiding.
Only joking bro, I love my brother from another mother.

Right who wants to play hide and seek.
I'll hide and you seek.

It is a hard truth to grasp for some Bill.....I get it......the best way to view it in it's simplest form is through the lens of the words of Christ to his disciples.....

The Spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak <----He stated this to his saved, immersed disciples.....and we would be fools to reject the concept that it is the spirit that has been born again, from above by incorruptible seed, said spirit does NOT SIN and ALWAYS SEEKS to do right.....yet it is still housed in a fallen, dead body of corrupt sinful flesh that is contrary to the truth, not subject to the word of God neither indeed can be........HENCE the transformation of what CONTROLS the body and where we make decisions....the MIND <---this is described in Romans 12:1-2.......the more we study and submit to the word the greater the metamorphosis........we begin to change outwardly by the inward change....this is called ongoing sanctification and is fully subject to successes and or failures depending upon the amount and level of the word we take in and or apply in our life...........this also directly affects the amount of works and types of works we may or may not do and or the fruit and type of fruit we may or may not bear......

 

[UnderGrace]

He does not in any way teach works , he clearly states
Ephesians 2:8-9...Never does he or has he taught that...
Maybe you should look at Grace to you testimony of what his church believe , he definitely believes in eternal security...xox...

Well Rosemary I am very familiar with how he teaches and what he teaches having spent at least 25 years listening to him and reading his books.

In his teachings eternal security is for those who prove themselves, he makes behavior and fruit essential ingredients of salvation. No fruit, no change in behaviour then they are not saved.
He is subtle I will give him that, not always easy to discern what he is actually stating.
Anyway lets leave it at that....I gave you my word of caution.

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

 

[UnderGrace]

Sorry about the big writing lol , I know you can see fine

Funny my eyes have improved over the years.

 

[UnderGrace]

Sorry UG

No need to be sorry,

We do have two natures, we are given a new life when we are born again, however the old is still there.
You want to walk in the new nature, then agree with God that you are a new creation in Christ.

 

[calibob]

Pls, go back and read 101,865 about Mac Arthur and his false doctrine.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Well Rosemary I am very familiar with how he teaches and what he teaches having spent at least 25 years listening to him and reading his books.

In his teachings eternal security is for those who prove themselves, he makes behavior and fruit essential ingredients of salvation. No fruit, no change in behaviour then they are not saved.
He is subtle I will give him that, not always easy to discern what he is actually stating.
Anyway lets leave it at that....I gave you my word of caution.

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

Your closing sounds just like him lol...Enjoy your Sunday...xox...

 

[BillG]

No need to be sorry,

We do have two natures, we are given a new life when we are born again, however the old is still there.
You want to walk in the new nature, then agree with God that you are a new creation in Christ.

So when I sin it's the old nature sinning and not my new nature?

That's where I struggle.

 

[Rosemaryx]

So when I sin it's the old nature sinning and not my new nature?

That's where I struggle.

Yes...Because when we go home to be with our Lord , we will not ever be in the presence of sin , but while we live on this earth , we still will sin and hate it , praise God for repentance and His mercy and grace every morning...xox...

 

[UnderGrace]

So when I sin it's the old nature sinning and not my new nature?

That's where I struggle.

I would agree, the old nature is not being redeemed, that is the key to understand we have a completely new nature that is Christ Jesus within us.

 

[UnderGrace]

Your closing sounds just like him lol...Enjoy your Sunday...xox...

LOL ...that is a quote from his book.

And he is wrong it is the incorruptible seed (Jesus) within me that determines my eternal destiny not my works.

 

[Rosemaryx]

LOL ...that is a quote from his book.

And he is wrong it is the incorruptible seed (Jesus) within me that determines my eternal destiny not my works.

And that is what he preaches , it is ALL Jesus , nothing to do with us...Please , go to his homepage of Grace to you , then you can see for yourself...I do not want to go back and forth , read his testimony , and then see what you find , if not , then like you said , we shall leave this alone ...xox...

 

[UnderGrace]

And that is what he preaches , it is ALL Jesus , nothing to do with us...Please , go to his homepage of Grace to you , then you can see for yourself...I do not want to go back and forth , read his testimony , and then see what you find , if not , then like you said , we shall leave this alone ...xox...

I am well versed in all his work, his background etc.,
I have thoroughly researched him when he I noticed he would contradict himself often in his books.
I do not accept his teachings that works prove our salvation, nor that if there are no works then there is no salvation, nor do I accept that we have one nature that is being redeemed, nor do I accept that the blood of Jesus is purely symbolic as he has stated.

 

[UnderGrace]

So when I sin it's the old nature sinning and not my new nature?

That's where I struggle.

If we focus on the old nature then that is where we will go...like driving a car one focuses on the road ahead, have you ever noticed that if you glance over to the side of the road the car will tend to go that way especially for new drivers.

Here is another way to focus on our new nature..

We appropriate grace when we stop trying to contribute to His Life!
We agree with Him that His life is more than sufficient alone.
That is the Life that we now have in us, the Life that naturally rises up and flows through us.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I am well versed in all his work, his background etc.,
I have thoroughly researched him when he I noticed he would contradict himself often in his books.
I do not accept his teachings that works prove our salvation, nor that if there are no works then there is no salvation, nor do I accept that we have one nature that is being redeemed, nor do I accept that the blood of Jesus is purely symbolic as he has stated.[/QUOTE

I love him , he is my brother in Christ...We differ , and that`s ok ...xox...

 

[BillG]

Oh I agree......you know...funny thing....i get raked over the coals by people on this site for being rough, gruff, straight forward etc.....and yet God has used me to reach million...


It is a hard truth to grasp for some Bill.....I get it......the best way to view it in it's simplest form is through the lens of the words of Christ to his disciples.....

The Spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak <----He stated this to his saved, immersed disciples.....and we would be fools to reject the concept that it is the spirit that has been born again, from above by incorruptible seed, said spirit does NOT SIN and ALWAYS SEEKS to do right.....yet it is still housed in a fallen, dead body of corrupt sinful flesh that is contrary to the truth, not subject to the word of God neither indeed can be........HENCE the transformation of what CONTROLS the body and where we make decisions....the MIND <---this is described in Romans 12:1-2.......the more we study and submit to the word the greater the metamorphosis........we begin to change outwardly by the inward change....this is called ongoing sanctification and is fully subject to successes and or failures depending upon the amount and level of the word we take in and or apply in our life...........this also directly affects the amount of works and types of works we may or may not do and or the fruit and type of fruit we may or may not bear......

Thanks for your patience bro.

Romans 7:18
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. (NLT)

Romans 7:18
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. (NIV)

Romans 7:18
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.(HSCB)

Romans 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.(NKJV)

What we see from the above verses.

Sinful nature but not sinful flesh.
So if we sin why not sinful flesh?

So is the spirit that is born again my spirit before I came to Jesus?
Or is it the Holy Spirit in me?

What is the said spirit that does not sin but seeks to right?
What spirit is being sanctified?

I think for me the reason I am struggling with this is because I hate my sin with a passion but I don't understand where it is coming from?

Nature or flesh.
We are called to crucify the flesh but why does sin reside in the flesh?

I know we should not focus on sin, and I tell others that.
Don't focus on the sin but focus on Jesus, when we do he will deal with issues.

Do you know what, I think I know the truth and teach it, but when it comes to me I'm very hard on myself.

What is true for others and is the truth in Jesus doesn't apply to me.
Is that normal?