Not By Works

[KJV1611]

Many cannot grasp the truth that a saved man, whose spirit is born from above by incorruptible seed which is eternally justified, sealed and sanctified positionally in Christ does not sin.....and that is WHY WE ARE ETERNALLY SAVED.......yet....that same sinless spirit born of GOD is still bound in a wicked, fallen, sinful body of flesh that is weak, contrary to God and is not subject unto the law of God and ALWAYS seeks to do that which is wrong.....the spirit is indeed willing, but the FLESH IS WEAK<<-This is the law's inherant weakness and why law keeping or some religious hoop jumping will NEVER SAVE ANYONE

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

That which is "born of God, which cannot sin" is the inward man of verse 22.
In verse 25 Paul says "With HIS MIND he serves the law of God.
According to those two verses, what is the "inward man"?

 

[KJV1611]

YOu do know the KJV is a translation, right? VCO Didnt change the Bible, he just quoted another translation. CAREFUL NOW! VCO is a BROTHER and is preaching the RIGHT GOSPEL and I LOVE VCO

Ever read James White's KJV[Only] controversy?

I'm not going to get into a KJV debate here so I'm not going to comment on the KJV being a translation.

I never said VCO wasn't a brother, I said he's preaching a false gospel. I in ignorance and being a Christian have preached a false gospel. I like VCO and do consider him a brother.

If one bible version preaches a different gospel than another version, then one of those versions IS NOT the word of God. You don't get more clarity by picking some words from one version and some words from another version. What you get is "another gospel" created from mixing truth with error .

I've never read the book but I have watched a few of his debates and youtubes. Needless to say I don't care for his view.

 

[KJV1611]

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Continues on to describe the state before Christ. then what Christ did for us in the following verses!

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


Even WE when we were dead in our sins, has quickened US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST.
Are you suggesting that Christ was also spiritually dead?

 

[Hevosmies]

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


Even WE when we were dead in our sins, has quickened US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST.
Are you suggesting that Christ was also spiritually dead?

We was dead before Christ quickened us.

 

[Hevosmies]

I never said VCO wasn't a brother, I said he's preaching a false gospel.

Oy vey! Brother preaching a false gospel?

Mamma mia. I love VCO he is preaching the right gospel. And thats the bottomline cause I said so! (someone will catch that reference)

 

[Macabeus]

He may

But he also comes across as legalistic, which i am at war against, because i have seen the damage it does to other people, and even in my own life (it caused me to walk away fromGod for 5 Years,

Post number or link so I can defend myself against your character assasination

See, this is what I mean. You and some of your friends always calling me legalist, work salvation, etc, but can never produce a post. It is nothing more than character Assasination.

One post to show I’m legalistic so I can show you are mistaken AGAIN

 

[Macabeus]

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

That which is "born of God, which cannot sin" is the inward man of verse 22.
In verse 25 Paul says "With HIS MIND he serves the law of God.
According to those two verses, what is the "inward man"?

Two natures. We choose which we follow. Simple.

 

[Macabeus]

Oy vey! Brother preaching a false gospel?

Mamma mia. I love VCO he is preaching the right gospel. And thats the bottomline cause I said so! (someone will catch that reference)

See what I mean!!!! Accusation without documentation. When I attack someone’s position I provide LINKS of documentation

Kjv accused VCO and did not provide any supporting documentation. This is what always got me all riled up

We need to stop all the accusations, unless people can back their words up with links SO THE ACCUSED CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES.

I know I make certain accusations, but at least I provide links and documentation so the person can defend themselves

 

[KJV1611]

Two natures. We choose which we follow. Simple.

Funny you should say that because those verses never mentioned two natures in ONE MAN. Those verses specifically mention "the inward man" and Paul's members which is the outward man.

We have a second witness to "two men" in 2 Corinthians 4:16.

2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

I did a search in the KJV for "nature" and "natures" but I didn't come up with any verses that say ONE MAN has TWO NATURES.

Where did you get two natures in ONE MAN from?

I hope you're not thinking that this wicked, lying, cheating, vile person that WE ALL ARE has a "good streak" in him. Is this the gospel that you are preaching? Or is there really ANOTHER MAN in us that DOES NOT SIN?

 

[KJV1611]

See what I mean!!!! Accusation without documentation. When I attack someone’s position I provide LINKS of documentation

Kjv accused VCO and did not provide any supporting documentation. This is what always got me all riled up

We need to stop all the accusations, unless people can back their words up with links SO THE ACCUSED CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES.

I know I make certain accusations, but at least I provide links and documentation so the person can defend themselves

Do you really think that everything that comes out of your mouth about the bible and the gospel is SPOT ON and in accordance with the true gospel of the word? I can tell you that it isn't, it isn't true for ANY OF US.

So even if we are a Christian, WE CAN BE WRONG! And when we say things contrary to the TRUE GOSPEL then we are spreading a false gospel.

 

[Macabeus]

Funny you should say that because those verses never mentioned two natures in ONE MAN. Those verses specifically mention "the inward man" and Paul's members which is the outward man.

We have a second witness to "two men" in 2 Corinthians 4:16.

2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

I did a search in the KJV for "nature" and "natures" but I didn't come up with any verses that say ONE MAN has TWO NATURES.

Where did you get two natures in ONE MAN from?

I hope you're not thinking that this wicked, lying, cheating, vile person that WE ALL ARE has a "good streak" in him. Is this the gospel that you are preaching? Or is there really ANOTHER MAN in us that DOES NOT SIN?

No. You should have looked harder. 2 Peter 1:4 says we partake of the Divine NATURE. So you have the old nature and the imparted new nature. Galatians says the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. Romans says walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh, and if we live after the flesh we will die, but if we by the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the flesh we shall iive

So we have been given a new nature, but the old man, though crucified and deprived of power keeps trying to assert itself. This is talking about two natures in us, not two KJV’d and two macs. The only other person who lives in you is the Triune God.

And YOU choose if you follow the flesh
Or the Spirit, that’s the vital thing. Ok, you want to make it two persons? Well which ONE IS RUNNING YOUR LIFE. If you let the the flesh run the show, without wrestling with it and warring against it, it is a battle, youre basically forfeiting your Christ granted liberty, and making your new man a slave and under the dominion of the old

Sin shall have no dominion over you ...yield your members to God as servants of righteousness. Not to work for salvation, but because you are already saved, and it is Gods purpose for you

 

[CherieR]

If God had meant that we would not continue in habitual sin, he would have said that we would not continue in habitual sin. He didn't say that, YOU DID.

If your cool with changing the bible to YOUR GOSPEL that's fine by me but you're preaching a FALSE GOSPEL.... How do I know this? BECAUSE YOU HAD TO CHANGE THE WORDS.

When someone has to put THEIR WORDS over GOD'S WORDS, then there's a problem. Houston we have a problem.

What does 1 John 3:9-10 mean? I have heard some say that Christians would not live in sin. However I makes me think how much is too much sin before it counts as "living in sin"? It does not sound completely right to me but I am not sure what to make of these verses in 1 John either.

 

[Macabeus]

What does 1 John 3:9-10 mean? I have heard some say that Christians would not live in sin. However I makes me think how much is too much sin before it counts as "living in sin"? It does not sound completely right to me but I am not sure what to make of these verses in 1 John either.

Excellent question. The answer is found in the tense of the verb commit or practice (sin), depending on which translation you use

The primary function of the verb in Koine Greek, the language the Bible is written in, is not indicate TIME of action, but rather TYPE of action. The present tense is usually continuos action.

Two ways that the present tense can be used in greek is continuous, unbroken action or repeated action. Either unceasing or repetetive and habitual. The best way to read that text which is both grammatically viable and consistent with other scriptures is that John is speaking of continual, habitual, repetetive, progressive sinning as a WAY OF LIFE

Christians sin, they are not sinless. But continual persistence in sin is not a way of life for them. And even though we struggle with, we are progressing towards righteousness, even if we have many or few setbacks

Hope this helps.

 

[CherieR]

Excellent question. The answer is found in the tense of the verb commit or practice (sin), depending on which translation you use

The primary function of the verb in Koine Greek, the language the Bible is written in, is not indicate TIME of action, but rather TYPE of action. The present tense is usually continuos action.

Two ways that the present tense can be used in greek is continuous, unbroken action or repeated action. Either unceasing or repetetive and habitual. The best way to read that text which is both grammatically viable and consistent with other scriptures is that John is speaking of continual, habitual, repetetive, progressive sinning as a WAY OF LIFE

Christians sin, they are not sinless. But continual persistence in sin is not a way of life for them. And even though we struggle with, we are progressing towards righteousness, even if we have many or few setbacks

Hope this helps.

Mmm, I don't really know much about verb tenses in the bible and the language the bible was written in.

Still I cannot think of a single day I can say with confidence that I did not sin. I am not sure if such is possible until one goes to heaven.

 

[KJV1611]

No. You should have looked harder. 2 Peter 1:4 says we partake of the Divine NATURE. So you have the old nature and the imparted new nature. Galatians says the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. Romans says walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh, and if we live after the flesh we will die, but if we by the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the flesh we shall iive

So we have been given a new nature, but the old man, though crucified and deprived of power keeps trying to assert itself. This is talking about two natures in us, not two KJV’d and two macs. The only other person who lives in you is the Triune God.

And YOU choose if you follow the flesh
Or the Spirit, that’s the vital thing. Ok, you want to make it two persons? Well which ONE IS RUNNING YOUR LIFE. If you let the the flesh run the show, without wrestling with it and warring against it, it is a battle, youre basically forfeiting your Christ granted liberty, and making your new man a slave and under the dominion of the old

Sin shall have no dominion over you ...yield your members to God as servants of righteousness. Not to work for salvation, but because you are already saved, and it is Gods purpose for you

I'm not going to argue this with you Mac. I said there was no mention of TWO NATURES in ONE MAN.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

That verse is talking about everlasting life, glorified bodies, bodies that don't sin, bodies that inheri heaven.

You don't have a divine nature right now! You have the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN and if you would stop being so stubborn and listen to what the bible is saying you could see exactly what that new man is.

But here we go again, you have to change the words of the bible to fit your view instead of letting the bible say what it says. How do you think you're ever going to come to the truth if you DON'T believe the words of truth?

 

[VCO]

YOu do know the KJV is a translation, right? VCO Didnt change the Bible, he just quoted another translation. CAREFUL NOW! VCO is a BROTHER and is preaching the RIGHT GOSPEL and I LOVE VCO

Ever read James White's KJV[Only] controversy?

I will have to differ with you. KJV is NOT a Translation; it is a Paraphrase, and they admitted in the Original 1611 KJV PREFACE, and the sole purpose for the KJV, was to Update the LANGUAGE in the Previous numerous English VERSIONS and to Correct KNOW ERRORS in those VERSIONS, NOT TO MAKE A WHOLE NEW TRANSLATION:

(quote)
. . .

so, if we building upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labours, doe endevour to make that better which they left so good; no man, we are sure, hath cause to mislike us; they, we persuade our selves, if they were alive, would thanke us. . . .​

Yet before we end, we must answere a third cavill and objection of theirs against us, for altering and amending our Taanslations [sic] so oft; wherein truely they deale hardly, and strangely with us. { The very same thing KJV only Believers do to MODERN Translations. } For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . .​

. . .​

But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: But it is high time to leave them, and to shew in briefe what wee proposed to our selves, and what course we held in this our perusall and survay of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, . . . but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . . (end quote)​

http://www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/pref1.htm

​

{ That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages. }​

They predominately Used 5 or 6 older English translation, and occasionally in questionable errors, looked the LATIN TRANSLATION, or the Greek Septuagint to Correct Knew ERRORS. AND THEY ALSO MISSED A FEW ERRORS.

Especially this ONE:

1 John 5:7-8 (NRSV)
7 There are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

ACTUAL TRANSLATION, but look at the KJV Mistranslaton:

1 John 5:7-8 (KJV)
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The translators of EARLIER ENGLISH TRANSLATION, forgot to put their added words in Italics in Brackets. That error actually is in the LATIN BIBLE, so when someone translated the Latin, into English for the first time, that ERROR CAME WITH IT.

 

[KJV1611]

What does 1 John 3:9-10 mean? I have heard some say that Christians would not live in sin. However I makes me think how much is too much sin before it counts as "living in sin"? It does not sound completely right to me but I am not sure what to make of these verses in 1 John either.

We all are sinners, habitual sinners, we sin everyday of our lives contrary to what we may think of our own selves. We can lie to ourselves and pretend that we don't sin but deep down inside we all know exactly what we are. The heart of man is DESPERATELY wicked.

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I'm going to give you what I believe God has shown me from the scriptures... I will get ridiculed, it will make people mad and think that I'm an idiot. But I feel led to do it so here it goes.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Whosoever is born of God? None of us are born from God except Adam according to scripture. The scripture also says that we are of OUR FATHER - the devil. I can't say any more than that because I don't want to lose the small amount of credibility that I have right now on this forum. So the point here is that our flesh is not born of God.

There is a new man formed in us when are born again by the incorruptible seed. That incorruptible seed is the word of God. We are born again by WORDS. Those words create an image of Christ in our minds, this is the Christ in us, this is "the inward man".

Since our inward man is words in our minds and an image of Christ in our minds, can those words in our mind sin?

This new man CAN NOT sin because his seed (the incorruptible word of God) is in that new man... those words made or birthed that man.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God are manifest because the INNER MAN wants to and has the power to do righteousness through us and he loves his brother. In this, doing righteous acts and loving our brother, the children of God are manifest.

I think the manifestation of the children of the devil is self-explanatory.

 

[CherieR]

We all are sinners, habitual sinners, we sin everyday of our lives contrary to what we may think of our own selves. We can lie to ourselves and pretend that we don't sin but deep down inside we all know exactly what we are. The heart of man is DESPERATELY wicked.

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I'm going to give you what I believe God has shown me from the scriptures... I will get ridiculed, it will make people mad and think that I'm an idiot. But I feel led to do it so here it goes.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Whosoever is born of God? None of us are born from God except Adam according to scripture. The scripture also says that we are of OUR FATHER - the devil. I can't say any more than that because I don't want to lose the small amount of credibility that I have right now on this forum. So the point here is that our flesh is not born of God.

There is a new man formed in us when are born again by the incorruptible seed. That incorruptible seed is the word of God. We are born again by WORDS. Those words create an image of Christ in our minds, this is the Christ in us, this is "the inward man".

Since our inward man is words in our minds and an image of Christ in our minds, can those words in our mind sin?

This new man CAN NOT sin because his seed (the incorruptible word of God) is in that new man... those words made or birthed that man.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God are manifest because the INNER MAN wants to and has the power to do righteousness through us and he loves his brother. In this, doing righteous acts and loving our brother, the children of God are manifest.

I think the manifestation of the children of the devil is self-explanatory.

A bit confusing but interesting perspective.

 

[VCO]

How about posting the verse that says we are spiritually dead before Christ and the verse that says Adam's spirit died also.

Don't use Genesis 2:17 as your proof because Adam DID DIE a physical death in the VERY SAME DAY that he ate of it.

2Pe_3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Gen_5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Oh come on now, do you know so little. Spiritual Death, IS NOT like the Death of the BODY. It is In tune with the WILL OF THE FLESH. You cannot PERCEIVE IT. Born Again, brings YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT INTO ETERNAL LIFE, and totally submissive to the WILL OF GOD. I will become dominant through the FEEDING ON THE WORD eventually.


Ephesians 2:4-5 (ESV)
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Your Human Body has always been ALIVE since you were Born,

Your Soul or Human Mind has always been ALIVE since your were Born.

Your Human Spirit was DEAD yet functioning in tune with your SIN, until you WERE BORN AGAIN by the Holy Spirit.


HERE IS THE VERSE WERE JESUS CALLS THE MORTAL MIND the SOUL.

Luke 12:19-20 (ESV)
19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.”’
20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’

Once your HUMAN SPIRIT is BORN AGAIN, YOU WILL KNOW IT. It wars with the Human Mind (Soul) to become DOMINATE. With a HEATHY DIET of the WORD OF GOD, the WILL of the Human Spirit will Grow to be dominate over the Will of the Flesh (Soul).

 

[Macabeus]

We all are sinners, habitual sinners, we sin everyday of our lives contrary to what we may think of our own selves. We can lie to ourselves and pretend that we don't sin but deep down inside we all know exactly what we are. The heart of man is DESPERATELY wicked.

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I'm going to give you what I believe God has shown me from the scriptures... I will get ridiculed, it will make people mad and think that I'm an idiot. But I feel led to do it so here it goes.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Whosoever is born of God? None of us are born from God except Adam according to scripture. The scripture also says that we are of OUR FATHER - the devil. I can't say any more than that because I don't want to lose the small amount of credibility that I have right now on this forum. So the point here is that our flesh is not born of God.

There is a new man formed in us when are born again by the incorruptible seed. That incorruptible seed is the word of God. We are born again by WORDS. Those words create an image of Christ in our minds, this is the Christ in us, this is "the inward man".

Since our inward man is words in our minds and an image of Christ in our minds, can those words in our mind sin?

This new man CAN NOT sin because his seed (the incorruptible word of God) is in that new man... those words made or birthed that man.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God are manifest because the INNER MAN wants to and has the power to do righteousness through us and he loves his brother. In this, doing righteous acts and loving our brother, the children of God are manifest.

I think the manifestation of the children of the devil is self-explanatory.

I’ll tell you what. I do a VERSE by VERSE exegesis of 1 John 3:1-10 and you do the same when we’re both done we can post them on the same day, and then see who is able to work through the text. I sincerely don’t think you will be able to coherently walk through 10 verses with that schematic

No side passages, no adds, just exegete exactly what the text says. I can write an exegesis of 1 John 3:1-10 in about 30 minutes.

Are you willing to put your exegesis of the verses in context up for inspection?